What will happen to film M cameras? (Speculation warning!)

[stunsworth]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

But a Warbutons' sliced load is the perfect foundation for the classic British 'chip buttie'. Especially with a dash of Heinz tomato ketchup. 'Proper' bread just isn't up to the task.

[jaapv]

Delia strove in vain...

[scsambrook]

IF the S2 is a success and IF there is an M9 then Leica Camera will almost certainly kill off the M7 and put the MP into a parallel world of " A la Carte Plus" where prospective buyers will be told only x units a year will be made - and at a price no sane photographer would dream of paying. That way they could generate enough profit to justify continuing production, otherwise the 35mm cameras will be buried with about as much ceremony as the R series was.

 

And if the S2 is a failure, then Leica Camera is - sadly - almost certainly history.

[Rolo]

IF - and at a price no sane photographer would dream of paying.

 

And if the S2 is a failure, then Leica Camera is - sadly - almost certainly history.

 

Passed that point about 40 years ago !

 

Leica truly is history and they keep making it. Don't see any point in casting another shadow on this great company, there's enough here with their backs to the sun !

 

Whilst there are lots anticipating doom, gloom and more doom, there are some who suspect that the company is on the verge of several major breakthroughs. There's a chance that Dr Kaufman is about to treble his money and walk off into the Leica glow with a smile on his face and job done.

 

As for the film M's, they're such an important part of the brand that the company could absorb small operating losses to ensure the continuation of the benefit. Whilst there are technicians able to repair M's and parts for the purpose, the additional cost of putting 100 a year on the shelves may be small.

[Guest BigSplash]

IF the S2 is a success and IF there is an M9 then Leica Camera will almost certainly kill off the M7 and put the MP into a parallel world of " A la Carte Plus" where prospective buyers will be told only x units a year will be made - and at a price no sane photographer would dream of paying. That way they could generate enough profit to justify continuing production, otherwise the 35mm cameras will be buried with about as much ceremony as the R series was.

 

And if the S2 is a failure, then Leica Camera is - sadly - almost certainly history.

 

My gosh and I am always been accused of being negative. ......I hope and trust that you are wrong.

[Guest BigSplash]

Passed that point about 40 years ago !

 

Leica truly is history and they keep making it. Don't see any point in casting another shadow on this great company, there's enough here with their backs to the sun !

 

Whilst there are lots anticipating doom, gloom and more doom, there are some who suspect that the company is on the verge of several major breakthroughs. There's a chance that Dr Kaufman is about to treble his money and walk off into the Leica glow with a smile on his face and job done.

 

As for the film M's, they're such an important part of the brand that the company could absorb small operating losses to ensure the continuation of the benefit. Whilst there are technicians able to repair M's and parts for the purpose, the additional cost of putting 100 a year on the shelves may be small.

 

Interesting....I am one of those that believes that they just maybe on the verge of some technical breakthroughs In my view apart from a FF M9 which may or may not happen I foresee an EVF adapter with an ability to focus sharply macro and telephoto lenses....this would open huge opportunities for Leica to eat into the DSLR market. using the M7 / MP / M8 / M9 backs

 

As a businessman I am however having difficulty with the concept "the company could absorb small operating losses to ensure the continuation of the benefit"

 

Why not just make a bunch of Leica dummies and give every science museum in every major city one as a marketing initiative.....would that with the history of Leica be more potent?

[earleygallery]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

And if the S2 is a failure, then Leica Camera is - sadly - almost certainly history.

 

Big IF but IF your scenario were played out I'm 100% certain that Leica as a camera brand would continue, albeit most likely under new ownership and probably with a different product range. The brand is too famous to simply disappear.

[stunsworth]

I foresee an EVF adapter with an ability to focus sharply macro and telephoto lenses....this would open huge opportunities for Leica to eat into the DSLR market. using the M7 / MP / M8 / M9 backs

 

Given the cost of entry (purchase of an M body), I see it as more of a chance to gently lick the dSLR market rather than eat into it.

[Rolo]

As a businessman I am however having difficulty with the concept "the company could absorb small operating losses to ensure the continuation of the benefit"

 

As one businessman to another, I don't understand your difficulty with the concept. It's common practice outside the world of the corner shop.

 

This is small bucks, £1,000 of cost x100, less any return on sales.

 

Didn't I hear that the Hummer never made a profit and not sure whether PC's or was it mainframes never turned in a contribution for IBM. Still, you're drawing me into a discussion on Corporate finances and marketing strategy that I'm not getting paid for. LOL

 

end

[SJP]

Although I can appreciate that people may want to spend their money on other stuff that they find more important, and I am fully aware that there are plenty in NL & UK and other parts of the first world that can only dream about buying something so expensive, I am nevertheless confused about the price argument that keeps cropping up.

 

A car costs 5keuro & up (including second hand) roughly, a set of chairs & table for the kitchen 1000 euro, washing machine 500+, TV about 1000, carpet, curtains, garden plants, getting the house painted is all in that sort of ballpark. How much does a holiday cost ?

 

A M8 is a lot of money compared to many other cameras but I do not expect reselling/replacing it very quickly and the lenses keep their value. So we are talking about maybe 500 euro/year depreciation to own and use a M8. That is a lot but not ridiculous - about the same as a change of tyres. What gives me more fun........??

 

Also, I was intrigued to read that the average household in NL has about 50 keuro stored in savings, so there are plenty with a lot more money lying around that they are not doing anything useful with.

[jaapv]

Big IF but IF your scenario were played out I'm 100% certain that Leica as a camera brand would continue, albeit most likely under new ownership and probably with a different product range. The brand is too famous to simply disappear.

I certainly doubt that the S2 is seen as a huge moneymaker by Leica. The bread and butter must be the M series. And any putative new owner would be pretty dumb to terminate the rangefinders.

[Steve Ash]

It is too obvious that the future of film M cameras only depends on the future of film in general. But this is not in the hands of Leica.

The big film suppliers Kodak and Fuji have to deeply think to get their product more competitive. In my point of view both focus too much on prints. It is time that they realise that all most all users want to have their pictures finally digital. Scanning is the way to go and of cause available. But at least in Europe scanning of film is offered either at far too low resolution or far to expensive. Thus I think both big players have to streamline their processing machines in a way that they are able to offer processing primarily including scanning at higher image quality than high-end digital cameras. Please Mr. DiSabato wake up.

 

Regards

Steve

[bill]

...in Europe scanning of film is offered either at far too low resolution or far to expensive. Thus I think both big players have to streamline their processing machines in a way that they are able to offer processing primarily including scanning at higher image quality than high-end digital cameras.

 

Steve, I entirely agree with you on the low res/high cost issue. One alternative that I have taken is to build a relationship with your local processor. They CAN turn up the resolution, but often there is no incentive for them to do so. Asking nicely may get you somewhere, however - it certainly did me.

 

Where I disagree is that big players should offer high quality scanning - "should" is a million miles away from "will", and will is driven by business sense. Why should they continue to keep an old, and messy, environmentally unfriendly, skill-heavy service model competitive with "clean" digital processing? I regret the implication, but I am resigned to it.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[Steve Ash]

...Why should they continue to keep an old, and messy, environmentally unfriendly, skill-heavy service model competitive with "clean" digital processing? I regret the implication, but I am resigned to it.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

 

The point is that Kodak makes profit on each roll they sell ( I suppose so), for sensors they earn money only once. Most images end up on a hard disc or flickr or similar, but get not printed on Kodak paper.

To keep film alive the advantages of film have to go all the way down to the digital file that the end consumer likes to have. So scanning it at high resolution and color depth is a must. If these digital files are better than the ones taken with a digital camera, then there always will be people going this road.

 

Regards

Steve

[mhoersch]

The point is that Kodak makes profit on each roll they sell ( I suppose so), for sensors they earn money only once. Most images end up on a hard disc or flickr or similar, but get not printed on Kodak paper.

To keep film alive the advantages of film have to go all the way down to the digital file that the end consumer likes to have. So scanning it at high resolution and color depth is a must. If these digital files are better than the ones taken with a digital camera, then there always will be people going this road.

 

Regards

Steve

 

Good reasoning! I would return to film in a second if someone offered the service you describe for a reasonable price. Imagine taking medium format b&w pictures and getting perfect negatives as well as high res scans from the lab - that would be heaven!!!

[scsambrook]

My gosh and I am always been accused of being negative. ......I hope and trust that you are wrong.

 

I've owned Leica cameras since 1959, I have an M2 and M8 and still get as much pleasure from using Leicas as I did when I got my first one. I get sick of people whining about how poor value for money Leica products are, and I accept that the Leica has always been a costly instrument with a relatively limited market. I hope Leicas are still being made in 2059 when I celebrate My 100 years of Life with the Leica, but times have changed and Leica Camera AG isn't the same sort of business as Ernst Leitz GmbH used to be.

 

A great deal of money has been invested in bringing the S2 to market, and Leica Camera needs it to be a business success. I sincerely hope the company can enjoy that success, and I would love to see an M9 that is the equivalent of what the M3 represented in 1953 - that is, a TYPE of camera which had no equal. If that did happen, then the 35mm Leica film camera would - as a marketing proposition - simply be superfluous, except as a niche product for those wanting to buy a "newly manufactured piece of history". But if the S2 fails to live up to its required sales level, then I fear the firm may be so weakened that it cannot help but go out of business. And that would a great, and regretable, loss.

[scsambrook]

Big IF but IF your scenario were played out I'm 100% certain that Leica as a camera brand would continue, albeit most likely under new ownership and probably with a different product range. The brand is too famous to simply disappear.

... Just like Voigtlander?

[redbaron]

This constant financial "analysis" is absurd. A camera is a tool, like any other. I use MPs because of what they can do now and what I know they will be able to do in thirty years. No chef, carpenter, artist or other professional tradesman would even think to analyse the maker of their tools business modelling the way some people do with Leica.

[hoppyman]

Frank do you mean a detachable EVF and the body assemblies of those cameras without the finder part (like the wide ZI film cameras for example?)

Detachable external optical finders are well established and work for particular applications of course (not focusing).

Perhaps you meant to refer to an EVF built in to the body in place of the rangefinder?

My view there is that there would likely be great reservation on the part of current M users, based on what is current known production (Panasonic G1). Stefan did say at the Hessenpark dinner that Leica considers it the lowest possible acceptable standard.

In my opinion a detachable EVF makes no market or technical sense with any film M body.

Given the minute tolerances and the focus criticality I would question its practicality with the M8 body. Since we have no official information on the M9 design yet there can be no informed opinion there.

 

I agree that there have been hints and 'daydreaming' from Leica (in LFI) on a possible different finder system, possible zooms, R&M adaptors, as well as a gap in their product range below the M8.

My speculation is something separate to the M9 (as you have suggested too), perhaps like the Olympus EP-1 or the leaked (unproven to exist) Panasonic GF-1.

 

Interesting....I am one of those that believes that they just maybe on the verge of some technical breakthroughs In my view apart from a FF M9 which may or may not happen I foresee an EVF adapter with an ability to focus sharply macro and telephoto lenses....this would open huge opportunities for Leica to eat into the DSLR market. using the M7 / MP / M8 / M9 backs

 

As a businessman I am however having difficulty with the concept "the company could absorb small operating losses to ensure the continuation of the benefit"

 

Why not just make a bunch of Leica dummies and give every science museum in every major city one as a marketing initiative.....would that with the history of Leica be more potent?

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[JBA]

I've just had the good fortune to find two MPs in new, unused condition (one with a 0.85 finder) at an obscure little camera shop around the corner for absurdly reasonable prices. Gotta love Tokyo!

 

Now that I'll be using 3 MPs, digital looks less attractive to me than ever. It's a medium I've never really resonated with in terms of the look of the photos or the handling of the equipment. I far prefer the process and look of scanned film, not to mention the fact that my photos are not at the mercy of hard drive failures and other computer glitches (a friend just lost a month's worth of digital photos to some mysterious computer malfunction). And scanning a roll of film here is cheap at 350 yen for 4-5mb jpegs.

 

Film is alive and well here in Tokyo. Leica certainly appears to be alive and well here too.