sdai Posted August 20, 2009 Share #121 Posted August 20, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Sorry about the late reply and I really appreciate your effort taking the time to help me or may be several others who have the question marks in their mind. I guess sooner or later we'll all get the answers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 20, 2009 Posted August 20, 2009 Hi sdai, Take a look here Press Release: S2 Technical Specs.. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
dfarkas Posted August 20, 2009 Share #122 Posted August 20, 2009 I had a chance recently to speak with the S2 project manager, Stephan Shulz, and ask him all of these questions directly. I've changed Guy's original answers to italics. My answers are in blue. I hope that the first-hand info direct from Solms will answer some of the outstanding questions at hand. David 1. What's the resolution of A/D converter inside the camera? I believe 14 bit to 16 bit conversion This is correct. The A/D converter is 14-bit, but the stored DNG is 16-bit. 2. Does the camera support pixel binning? I have a feeling that with the loss of C1 which pixel binning was a important part of the raw processing and with the generic raw converters now this is gone from the system. But we certainly need confirmation and it was not in the specs this round. Which makes me wonder. If you read anything on Sensor Plus you will notice C1 comes into the conversation on it. This isn't exactly what happened. Leica was able to do binning through Maestro in firmware. They just weren't totally happy with the results, especially at higher ISO, and decided to postpone this. It may show up via a firmware update down the road. Interestingly, higher ISO can also be achieved in two other ways. The first is to slow down the read speed of the sensor output from 24 Mhz to 12 Mhz. The signal has less noise, but the frame rate would drop by half. Similiarly, the second approach is to cut from 4 channel output to 2 channel output. This also would help in reducing noise, and making matching the readouts easier as well. Just like option 1, this would also drop the frame rate by half. But, either of these approaches could potentially gain one stop of ISO. Leica is looking at the possibility of one or both of these options down the road as a firmware upgrade. My feeling is that most users would probably prefer 0.8 fps at full resolution rather than 1.5 fps at 1/4 resolution anyway. And, according to Leica, the relationship with Adobe started in December 08, long before any announcement from Phase. It would seem that Leica is the one who walked away, not the other way around. 3. What are the ISO steps? 1/3, 1/2 or 1EV? With the ISO 80 start it must be 1/3rds ISO steps are 1EV. 4. Does it support DNG+JPEG writing or do people must choose either DNG or JPEG? My guess here it will do both at the same time This is correct. You can choose DNG, DNG+JPG Fine, DNG+JPG Basic, or JPG. 5. What is the AF working range? starting from -1 EV, 0EV or +1 EV? Simply not sure, Pretty certain the AF min illumination is -1EV or at least 0EV. Botttom line is the AF works in pretty dark situations. 0EV would be something like 30 seconds at f/5.6, ISO 100, which is pretty dark. 6. Does it support exposure bracketing? Certainly hope so for a new system like this.Even my old filmed based Mamiya does this It does have Exp bracketing. 3 or 5 frames, with 1/2, 1, or 2 stops between exposures. 7. What about EV compensation range? in 1/2, 1/3 or 1 ev steps? I would think 1/3 EV compensation is adjustable in 1/2 EV steps, on a scale of -3 to +3 EV. The choice for 1/2 EV was based upon the aperture and shutter being in 1/2 EV steps. So, this makes it consistent. 1/3 was deemed unnecessary given the greater DR of the sensor. 8. I know there's a AF lock button but is there a AE lock button? Most likely the combination of the same button on the back Mostly correct. When the AF mode is in AF-S or AF-C, focus is achieved by depressing the shutter release half-way and the rear thumb button is programmable as AE-L, AF-L, or AE/AF-L. When the camera is switched to MF (manual focus) mode, the rear button automatically becomes the AF-ON button and the shutter release becomes the AE-L at a half press. 9. Is AF micro adjustment user-controllable? Not sure No. Given much tigher tolerances on the S2 bodies and the testing and calibrating of the AF system for each and every lens, this is just not necessary. An S lens should not suffer from any front of back focus. Period. 10. Does it support WB bracketing? Doubt it very highly No. Most serious users and pros will be shooting in DNG. All shots will be adjusted later in the computer for color-critical work anyway. 11. Can I set WB using Kevin temperature? I would say yes here and also be able to create your own WB Yes. You can set the WB in Kelvin from 2000° to 14000°. You can also set a custom WB from a WhiBal card, Expodisc, EZBalance, a sheet of paper, etc. 12. What's the metering range? Not sure Still need 100% verification, but appears to be -2EV to 20 EV. 13. Is there an orientation sensor? I don't remember one on the prototype but this could have changed Yes. Portrait-oriented images in any DNG-compatible converter will come in as pre-rotated veticals. 14. Moiré detection and suppression using digital signal processing? that's pretty new, no special raw processing needed? This is a real question mark and reason why is it would actually be processing it out on the raw file before it writes the DNG. Also no matter how you slice the cheese it will have Moire just like any other back. I will give it credit for the 6 micron sensor which is actually less than the 6.8 micron sensor. Remember the 9 micron sensor is the worst at Moire so the smaller the microns the less the Moire but without dedicated software don't expect miracles . i don't think LR has any controls for this , so it will have to come in CS4 to control it. C1 has this control in the raw processing and so does Phocus for the Hassy. This one has some real question marks on how they are doing this in camera The S2 performs moire detection and removal only to in-camera JPGs. According to Leica, they haven't been able to produce moire in DNGs under any circumstance.... and they've really, really tried. 15. Does the lens support manual overriding in all settings? I know just by focusing the ring it takes over the AF but not sure it actually holds there without releasing the half way shutter Yes. The lenses all have clutchless focus rings, whcih can be engaged at any time. Guy is correct here. If you release the shutter from the half-way point and depress after MF, the camera will re-engage AF. If you have the AF set to the rear button then the shutter will not reengage AF. 16. Is it possible to enlarge the image and check focusing on the back LCD? Yes and it is fast the zooming and panning of the image Yes. By turning the thumbwheel in playback, you can zoom in. Or, by pressing on of the buttons around the LCD in Playback, the top-left button becomes a 1:1 quick key (100% view). 17. How about battery life? is there any indication in camera? Normal battery without grip is relatively small not sure I would expect more than 300 pops out of it in normal temps. The battery has a capactity of 2150 mAh, which is not very big. But, battery life is amazingly good. We should expect ot get in the ballpark of 600-700 shots on one charge (about 50 GB of data). Maestro has extremely low power consumption. 17. Does it work under -20 °C, or may be -30 °C? this is very important to me because winter is simply too long, too brutal in my area. Great question, I know my Phase back can go very low temps but not sure here The Phase back may work in this temperature range, but your lenses won't. The lubricants harden to the point where lenses just won't turn. The S2 is rated to -10° C, but should be able to handle -20° C pretty well. 18. Camera strap seems to be missing from the scope of supply. The camera comes with a neoprene neckstrap. Hand strap will only be available with the multi-function verticat grip. 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stunsworth Posted August 20, 2009 Share #123 Posted August 20, 2009 David many thanks for all of that. My only wish is that I could afford the camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
R10dreamer Posted August 21, 2009 Share #124 Posted August 21, 2009 David, you are a great resource to this forum (Guy - you too). Thank you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted August 21, 2009 Share #125 Posted August 21, 2009 Thanks David for checking on all that. Appreciate it . I never got past -1 degrees and residing in the desert there is not a chance in hell I will either but I did run good. Bummer on the pixel binning setup that is a interesting technology and hope Leica can do that at a later time and add it. I know Phase was able to add it later so that maybe the case with Leica. I thought the Moire would only be jpeg. Thanks for checking that one also. S2 users will have to do this in CS4 with some commercial plug in which I know do exist. The micro lenses do help here and as mentioned when I ran my test I saw the 6 micron sensor do a better job on moire than the 6.8 versions. So the S2 it should be less noticeable and in fashion, wedding with clothing this will be important. Just got a fist full yesterday on a shirt but did clean up. The one issue without AA filters is folks you get the detail and frankly better than a screen door on your sensor. I rather fix than not have the detail. One trick here on the jpegs make them very large with the S2 along with the Raw than copy the good part on the jpeg and paste on the moire. Since the engine will do the jpeg. Just a little secret there David so full stops here interesting 3. What are the ISO steps? 1/3, 1/2 or 1EV? With the ISO 80 start it must be 1/3rds ISO steps are 1EV. have to read more on your answers and see if I missed something Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted August 21, 2009 Share #126 Posted August 21, 2009 David, I must admit that I'm completely struck by your great enthusiasm in the product and amazing effort and diligence in bridging the gap in communication between us and Leica. Forum members who are seriously interested in the camera owe you more than a thank you collectively. I'm glad to see that most responses to my questions are very positive, same as Guy here, the only nit that I don't quite get is the 1EV ISO step, since we all have no idea about its real world performance at current stage, it is common sense that finer ISO steps are always preferred in order to keep noise at bay by choosing the lowest possible sensitivity. I personally don't care about pixel binning and frame rate that much, they're in the nice to have but not necessary category. Rather than keeping Leica engineers busy on these things, I'd like them to work on an improvement to the ISO steps instead. To be honest I haven't put too much thought into these questions although they are the very first ones that will jump on top of my head if I'm gonna shop a camera. Again, I was expecting that these random questions to be taken seriously so while I'm saying thank you to you David, please also pass my greetings and deepest appreciation to the good folks at Leica for their hard work. The last question regarding the strap wasn't serious at all ... I just couldn't believe that such a high profile product spec. sheet was put together in such a laidback style. I'm not exaggerating, when it comes to marketing you're running a one man show for the company. Cheers, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted August 21, 2009 Share #127 Posted August 21, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) According to Leica, they haven't been able to produce moire in DNGs under any circumstance.... and they've really, really tried. The ultimate test for me is birds in the family Odontophoridae, genus Callipepla, a.k.a. quail. The California Quail and Gambel's Quail have produced the wildest moire I've ever seen, even when a camera with an AA filter is used. I volunteer to test the S2 on these ultimate moire-generators. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandymc Posted August 21, 2009 Share #128 Posted August 21, 2009 The S2 performs moire detection and removal only to in-camera JPGs. According to Leica, they haven't been able to produce moire in DNGs under any circumstance.... and they've really, really tried. No insult to anyone, but that makes no sense at all - (a) how on earth could you get moire in the JPEG if it wasn't in the DNG and ( moire is inherent in the physics of a Bayer sensor - only way not to ever get it is if the images is blurred to below the Nyquist frequency, either deliberately by an AA filter, or "accidentally" by lens aberrations. Sandy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted August 21, 2009 Share #129 Posted August 21, 2009 AFAIK the first stop is ISO 80, and the steps are 1/2... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lxlim Posted August 21, 2009 Share #130 Posted August 21, 2009 Thanks, David. Sounds really good. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lxlim Posted August 21, 2009 Share #131 Posted August 21, 2009 ..... The last question regarding the strap wasn't serious at all ... I just couldn't believe that such a high profile product spec. sheet was put together in such a laidback style. I'm not exaggerating, when it comes to marketing you're running a one man show for the company. Cheers, Well, Simon, they have to try their best to sell you the S2. Who knows maybe all that stands between you getting the S2 is that teeny weeny strap issue ..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted August 21, 2009 Share #132 Posted August 21, 2009 AFAIK the first stop is ISO 80, and the steps are 1/2... It has the same ISO range than the M8. The S2 starts on stop below, just that. It is OK, if the quality at 1250 ISO is good, and really, really good at 640. I would like the M9 to have the same ISO range of the M8, but with at least 1 stop of noise improvement (this is, M9 at ISO 640 as good as M8 at 320). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjv Posted August 21, 2009 Share #133 Posted August 21, 2009 The more I read, the more I think the S2 could be the camera I've been looking for to eventually replace my Mamiya 7ii kit. It's able to be hand held, is more portable than Blad/Phase, has the added advantage of weather sealing plus I'm used to central focus points and manual focus in SLRs. Not to mention the lenses are faster than what I'm used to. Not sure how the transition would be going from the 6x7cm neg to a smaller sensor in terms of depth rendering, however I'm guessing the faster lenses will help in terms of throwing areas out of focus. I don't expect the S2 will be great at what many here would call high ISOs though. I only require up to 640ISO to be clean anyway as I'm used to using 400ISO max, but would appreciate an extra stop of leeway. It's a pity I don't have the cash for one in the bank... Actually, right now, I have nowhere near! I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Good luck to Leica! I look forward to being able to actually judge how their product measures up upon release. If the file quality and reliability is there, plus the support network is good (I'm speculating this may be the main problem in my part of the world, no different to the competition,) I'll do my best to buy one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted August 21, 2009 Share #134 Posted August 21, 2009 Well, Simon, they have to try their best to sell you the S2. Who knows maybe all that stands between you getting the S2 is that teeny weeny strap issue ..... Hehe, I was thinking that they would at least throw a Bobby belt into the kit for that price but honestly, I've almost never hanged a camera around my neck, I use either a hand strap or let the camera sitting on a tripod ... who knows, Leica does strange things all the time - seriously, there are certain things looking very fancy about the S2, like its viewfinder, I did a rough calculation based on film and sensor size, if they'd make it 100% it would be almost as big as the Mamiya 645 finder, it sounds really gorgeous. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted August 21, 2009 Share #135 Posted August 21, 2009 Going back and reading this statement I see this is just not possible . There is no difference between a Raw and a jpeg when it comes to Moire. Now the jpeg can be processed out but it still went to the jpeg and the raw before the processing of it out The S2 performs moire detection and removal only to in-camera JPGs. According to Leica, they haven't been able to produce moire in DNGs under any circumstance.... and they've really, really tried. This has nothing to do with file format . This has everything to do with absolute critical focus and hitting the Nyquist limit which will produce Moire. So I have real questions about this because first thing that comes to mind is the lens can't get to critical focus and a I know a 6 micron sensor will get moire. The only other way is it is getting processed out in the DNG which leica claims it is not. Seriously I am not buying this. Moire can happen with any system MF or even 35mm even with a AA filter on it. Basically this is exactly what Sandy is saying here as well. No insult to anyone, but that makes no sense at all - (a) how on earth could you get moire in the JPEG if it wasn't in the DNG and ( moire is inherent in the physics of a Bayer sensor - only way not to ever get it is if the images is blurred to below the Nyquist frequency, either deliberately by an AA filter, or "accidentally" by lens aberrations. Sandy I need a much better explanation than this than just a statement I have to defocus when I shoot sometimes to avoid the Nyquist limit when I do certain jobs like flat panel displays for avionics. If I critically focus i get moire every time. So I back off on focus and stop down to about 5.6 to bring the detail back but I stopped the lens from hitting the Nyquist limit. This is unavoidable and every back and camera I tried i will hit the Nyquist limit. If the Leica lenses are so sharp I simply do not know how it can be avoided for one and it's not showing up in the DNG's. I can get Moire almost at will sometimes just by picking the right subject. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
markowich Posted August 21, 2009 Share #136 Posted August 21, 2009 No insult to anyone, but that makes no sense at all - (a) how on earth could you get moire in the JPEG if it wasn't in the DNG and ( moire is inherent in the physics of a Bayer sensor - only way not to ever get it is if the images is blurred to below the Nyquist frequency, either deliberately by an AA filter, or "accidentally" by lens aberrations. Sandy moire at pattern frequencies which correspond to to the sensor pixel pattern are a scientific fact, just check out shannon's information theory. i suggest the leica engineers try harder, if not the customers will. peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfarkas Posted August 21, 2009 Share #137 Posted August 21, 2009 Going back and reading this statement I see this is just not possible . There is no difference between a Raw and a jpeg when it comes to Moire. Now the jpeg can be processed out but it still went to the jpeg and the raw before the processing of it out The S2 performs moire detection and removal only to in-camera JPGs. According to Leica, they haven't been able to produce moire in DNGs under any circumstance.... and they've really, really tried. This has nothing to do with file format . This has everything to do with absolute critical focus and hitting the Nyquist limit which will produce Moire. So I have real questions about this because first thing that comes to mind is the lens can't get to critical focus and a I know a 6 micron sensor will get moire. The only other way is it is getting processed out in the DNG which leica claims it is not. Seriously I am not buying this. Moire can happen with any system MF or even 35mm even with a AA filter on it. Basically this is exactly what Sandy is saying here as well. No insult to anyone, but that makes no sense at all - (a) how on earth could you get moire in the JPEG if it wasn't in the DNG and ( moire is inherent in the physics of a Bayer sensor - only way not to ever get it is if the images is blurred to below the Nyquist frequency, either deliberately by an AA filter, or "accidentally" by lens aberrations. Sandy I need a much better explanation than this than just a statement I have to defocus when I shoot sometimes to avoid the Nyquist limit when I do certain jobs like flat panel displays for avionics. If I critically focus i get moire every time. So I back off on focus and stop down to about 5.6 to bring the detail back but I stopped the lens from hitting the Nyquist limit. This is unavoidable and every back and camera I tried i will hit the Nyquist limit. If the Leica lenses are so sharp I simply do not know how it can be avoided for one and it's not showing up in the DNG's. I can get Moire almost at will sometimes just by picking the right subject. Guy, When I heard this answer, I asked for clarification. Stephan said that they really haven't been able to produce moire in images, DNG or JPG. Of course, I am puzzled by the point of developing moire detection and correction in JPG if it never shows up. We'll have to see some real images from the camera and test the heck out of it when it starts shipping. But, this is the official word from Solms right now. Don't shoot the messenger. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted August 21, 2009 Share #138 Posted August 21, 2009 Not shooting the messenger and I agree we will have to test the heck out of it , just like everyone I find it hard to believe. Tell them to go out and shoot a screen door or the back of a air conditioner. Obviously we know the lenses are very sharp so really hard to figure this one out. Just weird they have not seen it Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick_dykstra Posted August 21, 2009 Share #139 Posted August 21, 2009 The ultimate test for me is birds in the family Odontophoridae, genus Callipepla, a.k.a. quail. The California Quail and Gambel's Quail have produced the wildest moire I've ever seen, even when a camera with an AA filter is used. I volunteer to test the S2 on these ultimate moire-generators. No no Doug. Our Australian birds have much more moire than your birds. Always have, always will. The only way Leica can evaluate the limits of moire performance is to send me an S2 and lenses for some serious testing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lxlim Posted August 22, 2009 Share #140 Posted August 22, 2009 No no Doug. Our Australian birds have much more moire than your birds. Always have, always will. The only way Leica can evaluate the limits of moire performance is to send me an S2 and lenses for some serious testing. Well, its come down to whose bird has ..er more moire sort of test for the S2 then I think the German birds will have a first go before the Aussie ones get their chance. Afterall Leica does need to expand their market slowly in this economy. Of course, Aussie bird photographers will need to hold back on their purchases until the S2 has proven conclusively on the birds in Germany. BTW are there Aussie birds in the zoos of Germany? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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