jaapv Posted August 11, 2009 Share #21 Posted August 11, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Sorry, you lost me on that last one. What has the relative size of the 24 vs the 35 to do with sensor format? Maybe you skipped a few steps Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 11, 2009 Posted August 11, 2009 Hi jaapv, Take a look here Newbie would really appreciate your advice. (Sorry, long post). I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
mark_s Posted August 11, 2009 Author Share #22 Posted August 11, 2009 Many thanks to all of you for your comments, thoughts, and advice. As I imagined, there seems to be a fairly even split between those who say "I'd go for the M8 now, because it seems to suit your current needs" and "I'd wait till September to see what happens". I've been thinking (again): If there is an M announcement, regardless of what flavour, it might take ages before the camera(s) actually hit(s) the market, and thus wouldn't impact the M8 price (currently €3195) very quickly, I don't think. How much did the M8 cost when it first came out? Must have been well over 4,000, I assume (I'm guessing). If Leica were to offer it for well under €3,000 when a new M arrives, what message might that send out to its customers, I ask myself: like "Hey, at this severely discounted price, we're still making enough profit on a handmade camera built at German labour costs" - I don't think that's the sort of message a company like Leica would want to send out. So I'm thinking the €3,195 really is the lowest an M might go. Please correct me if you think otherwise. I'm verging on getting the M8 now, as I'm going on holiday for three weeks from the end of August and would just love to start taking photos with Leica glass. But I'm going to have a little chat with the dealer and see if he can put a good starter package together for me (i.e. a discount on the 35 mm Summarit). Wish me luck! If I do get a good offer, I reckon I'll go for it. Will let you know how I get along. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted August 11, 2009 Share #23 Posted August 11, 2009 Sorry, you lost me on that last one. What has the relative size of the 24 vs the 35 to do with sensor format? Maybe you skipped a few steps Sorry Jaap - I'm afraid I have a chameleon brain. step one 24mm on M8 = 32mm on M9 (roughly 35 - it's difficult to get exact, oh there was a 28 'lux) 24mm 'lux = 500gm 35mm 'lux = 250gm better? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted August 11, 2009 Share #24 Posted August 11, 2009 I'm verging on getting the M8 now, as I'm going on holiday for three weeks from the end of August and would just love to start taking photos with Leica glass. But I'm going to have a little chat with the dealer and see if he can put a good starter package together for me (i.e. a discount on the 35 mm Summarit). Wish me luck! If I do get a good offer, I reckon I'll go for it. Will let you know how I get along. I think you're quite right - with my 'low light wide angle' rider. Mind you, for holiday wide angle, the 15mm voigtlander is a great lens, tiny and very cheap (but slow) - and it works well on the M8 (you can stick a 39mm IR filter in the built in lens hood with a very light adhesive really easily - and get it out again later). Good Luck! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanhulsenbeek Posted August 11, 2009 Share #25 Posted August 11, 2009 ............. I'm going to have a little chat with the dealer and see if he can put a good starter package together for me (i.e. a discount on the 35 mm Summarit). Wish me luck! If I do get a good offer, I reckon I'll go for it............. That's the way to do it. Buy it, for a price you find acceptable, and enjoy it. I am not the expert, but I would not be surprised when it will take many many months before a M9 hits the market and the firmware is up to speed as well Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Kelly Posted August 11, 2009 Share #26 Posted August 11, 2009 I'm verging on getting the M8 now, as I'm going on holiday for three weeks from the end of August and would just love to start taking photos with Leica glass. But I'm going to have a little chat with the dealer and see if he can put a good starter package together for me (i.e. a discount on the 35 mm Summarit). Wish me luck! If I do get a good offer, I reckon I'll go for it. Will let you know how I get along. Have you considered renting an M8 whilst you are on vacation? This will provide some slack in terms of making the M8/M9 decision. I am certain that there are a number of Leica dealers in Berlin who rent equipment. Especially as you are definitely in the market for one or the other Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark_s Posted August 11, 2009 Author Share #27 Posted August 11, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) In the discussion of wether a FF sensor will bring you better pictures or if the M8 sensor is god enough, you forget the subjectiv element of what is the "correct" size. I grew up using plain old film, so to me a cropped sensor will always be a compromise, and FF the "correct" size (for a camera that historically have been a 35mm camera). If the M9 (whenever it arrives) have FF, it will for me be back to the "correct" size where it should be. I would also then of course not need to rethink what angle the lenses gives. When I use a 28mm I will get the angle I expect from a 28mm, I don't have to think of it as a 35mm with a different lable. Of course, the youngstert who grew up with APS-C cameras, will think different. Yes, for me the opposite is true. I had a (rarely used) film SLR in the 80s/90s, but I've taken many many many more photos on cropped sensors since buying my first Nikon digicam in 2000 and my first DSLR in 2006. So to me, a 35 mm lens is a "normal" focal length while 50 mm is already heading towards telephoto ( ok, so that last remark was slightly exaggerated). So I'm not too bothered about FF - in fact, I might find it confusing at first and would have to recalculate focal lengths to their "correct" cropped-sensor equivalent! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark_s Posted August 11, 2009 Author Share #28 Posted August 11, 2009 Have you considered renting an M8 whilst you are on vacation? This will provide some slack in terms of making the M8/M9 decision. I am certain that there are a number of Leica dealers in Berlin who rent equipment. Especially as you are definitely in the market for one or the other A good suggestion, Terry. I'll look into it. Though I'm wondering whether 3 weeks of rental might add up to a nice lens! Will check that out though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 11, 2009 Share #29 Posted August 11, 2009 Many thanks to all of you for your comments, thoughts, and advice. As I imagined, there seems to be a fairly even split between those who say "I'd go for the M8 now, because it seems to suit your current needs" and "I'd wait till September to see what happens". I've been thinking (again): If there is an M announcement, regardless of what flavour, it might take ages before the camera(s) actually hit(s) the market, and thus wouldn't impact the M8 price (currently €3195) very quickly, I don't think. How much did the M8 cost when it first came out? Must have been well over 4,000, I assume (I'm guessing). If Leica were to offer it for well under €3,000 when a new M arrives, what message might that send out to its customers, I ask myself: like "Hey, at this severely discounted price, we're still making enough profit on a handmade camera built at German labour costs" - I don't think that's the sort of message a company like Leica would want to send out. So I'm thinking the €3,195 really is the lowest an M might go. Please correct me if you think otherwise. I'm verging on getting the M8 now, as I'm going on holiday for three weeks from the end of August and would just love to start taking photos with Leica glass. But I'm going to have a little chat with the dealer and see if he can put a good starter package together for me (i.e. a discount on the 35 mm Summarit). Wish me luck! If I do get a good offer, I reckon I'll go for it. Will let you know how I get along. Seems like a sensible train of thought, although there is more to pricing than the costs of labour. Electronic parts may fluctuate, usually downwards and R&D will have been written off by now. Nobody knows what the future will bring, but I would surprised to see an entry level M camera under 3500 Euro. Let us know and good luck with your decisions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark_s Posted August 11, 2009 Author Share #30 Posted August 11, 2009 I think you're quite right - with my 'low light wide angle' rider. Mind you, for holiday wide angle, the 15mm voigtlander is a great lens, tiny and very cheap (but slow) - and it works well on the M8 (you can stick a 39mm IR filter in the built in lens hood with a very light adhesive really easily - and get it out again later). Good Luck! Thanks for the tips, Jono (also in your previous post). 15 mm really is nice and wide, even with the 1.33 crop. Is the Voigtlander still good quality despite its low price? (I have no experience with Voigtlander glass at all). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 11, 2009 Share #31 Posted August 11, 2009 Yes- this lens is surprisingly good. The only caveat is that it MUST be coded and needs a John Milich adapter for the purpose, and even then it might still give some cyan drift in very high IR circumstances. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark_s Posted August 11, 2009 Author Share #32 Posted August 11, 2009 Seems like a sensible train of thought, although there is more to pricing than the costs of labour. Electronic parts may fluctuate, usually downwards and R&D will have been written off by now. Nobody knows what the future will bring, but I would surprised to see an entry level M camera under 3500 Euro. Let us know and good luck with your decisions. Thanks Jaap. Yes, I've more or less made up my mind. The M8 right now is the camera for me, I reckon. I've come to the point where I just want to get out there and take photos with a rangefinder and Leica glass NOW and not think to much about what Leica might or might not do in the future. It is good to live (and take photos) in the present! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
farnz Posted August 11, 2009 Share #33 Posted August 11, 2009 Mark, All of the above is excellent advice but for balance there is one advantage that an M8 or M8.2 will have over an M9 if it has full IR filtering, which is the capability to take infrared shots. This capability is often overlooked in these fanciful discussions and there are a number of forum members who have produced excellent infrared shots. Clearly this is not a sole reason to choose the M8/M8.2 but it's worth mentioning since it may add to one side or the other in helping you to make your decision. Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark_s Posted August 11, 2009 Author Share #34 Posted August 11, 2009 I had exactly the same issue and ended up going for a Demonstration M8 sold by a very reputable UK Leica dealer. The body came with a full 2 year passport from Leica. Paperwork arrived a few days ago. The major plus for me was that I paid what I considered was a reasonable price for a second hand body. The camera was almost as new, had approx 3000 shutter actuations and the money I saved went into glass. When I do sell on for a 8.2, 8.n or 9.0! I figure the financial hit I will take will be so much better to palate. If you can find an approved demo model go for that. I've done a bit of phoning around in Berlin looking for a Leica dealer who might have a good second-hand or demo M8, but with no luck. I was surprised to find out that there is now only ONE Leica dealer in Berlin! The other three camera dealers who I phoned all said they no longer had Leica cameras and referred me to the one and only authorised dealer in town. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Per P. Posted August 11, 2009 Share #35 Posted August 11, 2009 You could take a look at the one in the buy & sell forum Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted August 11, 2009 Share #36 Posted August 11, 2009 Yes- this lens is surprisingly good. The only caveat is that it MUST be coded and needs a John Milich adapter for the purpose, and even then it might still give some cyan drift in very high IR circumstances. Sorry Jaap - I should have said this - still, an adaptor from John is not so expensive, and you could always code the M model 'manually' Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark_s Posted August 11, 2009 Author Share #37 Posted August 11, 2009 Mark, to me the M8.2 was never attractive at all (apart maybe from it's vulkanite dress ). Certainly, I would never pay any premium for it. Of course any new body (announcement) will impact the price of the M8/M8.2 out there. So why not wait until Mid Sep? Keep in mind that the M8 has a crop factor wrt 35mm film or sensors. Changing formats requires either some flexibility in usage of focal length or getting two lines of lenses. And the investment in lenses can be significant over time Still, there are other manufacturers like CV and Zeiss. I went with a Zeiss Biogon as my first lens and still use it. The downside of non-Leica lenses is, that at or blow 35mm, coding is required to remove the color cast in the corners stemming from the UVIR filters. This coding can be done in numerous ways (search the forum for a week to read). Whatever you do, have fun with it and don't revolve around the what-ifs too often. And yes, as Jaap says, your SLRs may collect dust ... Cheers Ivo Thanks, Ivo. So I assume then that third-party uncoded glass above 35 mm is not affected at all by colour cast? Can you recommend a good, fast and reasonably priced 50 mm or 75 mm? Yes, the DSLR will probably gather a little dust, but it will still be invaluable for those bird-in-flight shots with a 300 mm f/4 at 1250 ISO (that's 450 mm taking into account the crop factor!) But that really is a very specific usage - for everything else, I'm really looking forward to the quality and compactness of the Leica rangefinder. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 11, 2009 Share #38 Posted August 11, 2009 I've done a bit of phoning around in Berlin looking for a Leica dealer who might have a good second-hand or demo M8, but with no luck. I was surprised to find out that there is now only ONE Leica dealer in Berlin! The other three camera dealers who I phoned all said they no longer had Leica cameras and referred me to the one and only authorised dealer in town. Well, in these times of Internet one is not stuck to one location. I would suggest giving ffordes a mail, or maybe Robert White. Buying in the UK has the advantage of Passport warrantee too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adebartolo Posted August 11, 2009 Share #39 Posted August 11, 2009 A number of years ago I foolishly sold all my Leica Gear to embrace the new digital medium with numerous Nikon and Canon DSLRs. I had for the most part stopped using Nikon film bodies when they went to AF finding them not really to my liking. I was 20 year or so younger then and found that I had really no need for what I deemed an "unperfected" AF system. My M3, M6 TTL and lastly my M7 were my constant companions and were used virtually for everything. I find myself again at the cross roads. I'm not caring any longer for all the excess weight and size of the new DSLRs and for gods sake look at the pricing. I have rediscovered Manual Focus and there is no better in my mind than the Range Finder found on a Leica M, therefore I am getting ready to go out the door and purchase an M8. I have been torn by the indecision of weather to get the M8 or pony up the additional $2000 for the M8.2 let a lone learning about a probable M9. These posts have convinced me that the best route for me is the M8. Even with it's minor faults the down side will be when it is time to sell it will lose the least amount over the M8.2. I will use the savings and fund additional Leica Glass. Lets face it here is where the real investment lies. I am looking forward to this new experience. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJP Posted August 11, 2009 Share #40 Posted August 11, 2009 At least it was an informed decision;) Succes with your new toy when you get it, it really is great fun to use. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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