Newbie would really appreciate your advice. (Sorry, long post)

[mark_s]

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Hi all,

 

I'm new here and would very much appreciate your advice. *Please excuse* the very long post - I just wanted to provide enough information so you might be able to help me.

 

I've been using Nikon DSLRs for a few years now (mainly for wildlife/bird photography) and would like a more compact high-quality camera to complement my DSLR system for travel and non-bird photography. I always shoot in RAW, so I tried the Canon G10. It's OK but of course doesn't come even close to the output quality of the Nikon D300. Not bad for a compact, but the handling is more like a compact too, plus I can't get along with the viewfinder, and I don't really like composing a shot on an LCD screen.

 

So, after a year of every so often reading this forum, I decided to try out an M8.2 over the weekend. And, well, it's fantastic! It was my first experience with a rangefinder and, after a few hours, manual focussing (and indeed operating the camera in general) seemed to come so naturally. And when I viewed and developed the DNG files in Lightroom, I was 100% convinced.

 

Please bear with me... I'm slowly getting to the point... :-)

 

So, now to my dilemma:

 

My local dealer in Berlin is currently offering the M8 for €3,195 and the M8.2 for €4,995. Since I'd be buying into a new system, I would of course need a lens to start off with too - say, the 35 mm Summarit that I tried out with the camera.

 

Now, I know none of us can see into the future, so what Leica might or might not announce in September is just guesswork, but my thoughts are revolving around the following possibilities:

 

a) Even if an M8.3 or M9 is announced in September, the current €3,195 offer for the M8 is a "low" cost way (bar second-hand equipment) for a rangefinder newbie like me to get his "foot" in the Leica "door".

 

If an M8.3 or M9 is announced in September, the M8 might be discontinued and the M8.2 will become the new "entry level" M camera, and its price will be cut. (But will its price drop from the current €4,995 to €3,195? Unlikely, right?).

 

c) There will be no new M announced in September, so everything stays as it is for the time being, and I should get the M8 now.

 

So, based on these thoughts, my gut feeling is to get the M8 now, because €3,195 is probably the lowest an M is ever going to get and it might take a very long time before the M8.2 ever gets as low as this. However, on the other hand, should I just wait and hope the M8.2 does drop considerably in price? Decisions, decisions.

 

What would your gut feeling be in my situation?

 

Many thanks for your help - and patience reading this long post!

 

PS to German readers: Although I live in Berlin, I wrote this in English, as that's my native language. Please feel free to reply in German (also via PM), if you prefer.

 

Kind regards,

Mark

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[jaapv]

Mak, although I have been replying " wait a month" to some similar posts in this case I would say " go with your feeling".

Beware of one thing though - your DSLR system might start gathering dust....

[AbbeyPhoto]

I recently went through something very similar, and it was necessary to cut through all the M9 obsession and ask myself what I actually wanted from a camera. The M8 is a good camera and will continue to be so for years, regardless of whether the M9 has full frame, autofocus or a built in coffee maker. So discount the M9, seeing as it doesn't actually exist and no-one knows what it will be, and you're left choosing between the M8 and the M8.2

 

Both feature the same sensor, so while ISO1000+ isn't great (but better than the D200 / D2x for example) you gain the advantage of better dynamic range at both ends over even the D3, which is about as good as it gets. I actually did back to back tests this evening and both shadow and highlight detail are noticeably better.

 

The 8.2 is considerably more expensive and mainly features a quieter shutter and better LCD. All camera LCD's are hopeless anyway, so as long as it is good enough to show me framing and whether the image is sharp then I will worry about everything else at home (like you I shoot Raw exclusively). The histogram is the most important thing I look at on the display anyway.

 

I decided I could live with the noisier shutter, and if I can't then it can be upgraded by Leica anyway. For wildlife work you might find the quieter shutter an advantage, all I know is that the M8 is considerably quieter than my Nikon D3 so I'm happy (I'm a pro wedding shooter btw).

 

If it was my money I would buy the M8 and save the cash for lenses, which are more important anyway. EUR 3195 seems like a very good deal for what is an excellent camera.

[mikki]

Have you considered getting the M8 second-hand? There are some very good deals currently compared to the new-price. I got mine second-hand for € 2000, which saves you, well, a lot. Of couse, you haven't got the safety of warranty and such.

 

And indeed, since I got it, I haven't used my D200 anymore :-)

[tbarker13]

Why not wait to see what happens in September?

Even if Leica announces an M9 or M8.3, it's not as if the world's supply of new M8s will disappear overnight. And they certainly won't be raising the price on them at this point.

But if you simply must have your camera between now and September, go with whichever one is more comfortable on your pocketbook and gut.

[gfspencer]

Wait a few months and see what comes along then if you decide that the M9 (M8.3) is more than you want you can always buy an M8.2 . . . or get a used M8.

 

Getting used to a used M8 will tell you how much you like the rangefinder system.

[delander †]

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I'd buy the M8, particularly if you are not worried about shutter noise. I have two M8s and no problem with shutter noise. Another possibility is a M8.2 from a UK dealer at just under £3500.

 

Some how I'm beginning to think that the M9 at a rumoured 5500 euros is not going to be full frame although it may not need the ir filters.

 

Jeff

[Jeff S]

I agree with the suggestions to get a good used M8 and lens. Learn and enjoy the system while the market sorts itself out. And, if you decide to trade up at some point, you haven't lost much.

 

The digital world moves so fast that no matter what you do, the playing field will shift, and there will always be something else you wish you had:)

 

Jeff

[ShyTot]

Take a look at it from a marketing viewpoint and yo'll realise dat M8 is a long term player, with the M9 being the choice for the high spec buyer.

 

€3600 and €5500 pricing will be a the pill to swallow. The M8.2 will not have a market as buyers polarize into comfortably funded and new starters/students/poor'n'needy.

[ShyTot]

Take a look at it from a marketing viewpoint and yo'll realise dat M8 is a long term player, with the M9 being the choice for the high spec buyer.

 

€3600 and €5500 pricing will be a the pill to swallow. The M8.2 will not have a market as buyers polarize into comfortably-funded and new-starters/students/poor'n'needy.

 

Get an M8 and a 'Cron or 'Lux of your choice. 35mm Cron Asph is exceptional 1st lens.

[Per P.]

I went through the exact same considerations about two months ago, where my dealer very kindly warned of a possible M9 around the corner... I studied the forum dilligently, and found loads of useful inspiration as well as lots of strong opinions

 

My conclusion was that the M8 met my needs, the crop factor is less than my EOS 40D anyway, and the investment would be less in case I couldn't get my arms around the rangefinder way of shooting.... most importantly it left more budget for lenses.

 

So I bought a package with the M8 and an 28 Elmarit,and I found second hand 90 Elmarit and 50 Summicron at good prices. As for the shutter it's all about perception and I don't notice it at all. The framelines do take some adjustment, and M8.2 would possibly be better for my taste, but already now I'm getting fairly good at guessing. Minor cropping in Lightroom takes care of the rest.

 

In summary, I couldn't be happier with my choice, and I am sure you would say the same if you take the plunge. Good luck and have fun either way

[dcuthbert]

If you do plan to stick with the M8, I'd say ignore the M8.2.

 

Why pay for bug fixes, and let's call a spade a spade, the 8.2 is Leica admitting they really screwed things up with the first release and still expect you to pay for it.

 

The M8 is perfectly good and you don't need the extra bits found on the 8.2. Rather spend your money on glass.

[jaapv]

If you do plan to stick with the M8, I'd say ignore the M8.2.

 

Why pay for bug fixes, and let's call a spade a spade, the 8.2 is Leica admitting they really screwed things up with the first release and still expect you to pay for it.

 

The M8 is perfectly good and you don't need the extra bits found on the 8.2. Rather spend your money on glass.

Make up your mind: either the M8 was screwed up and needed bug fixes OR it is perfectly good and you don't need the extra bits. You can't have it both ways.

[Ecar]

My thoughts would be the following:

- wait for a few more weeks and see what happens

- if I needed the camera now, I'd hedge my bets and go for a used/demo M8 (you can find barely used ones on the bay for a *reasonable* price); then if there is indeed a M8.3 or M9 or whatever around the corner that comes with an attractive spec, I could perhaps still buy it in a few months without the feeling that I've made a wrong financial decision.

[Photon42]

Mark,

 

to me the M8.2 was never attractive at all (apart maybe from it's vulkanite dress ). Certainly, I would never pay any premium for it. Of course any new body (announcement) will impact the price of the M8/M8.2 out there. So why not wait until Mid Sep?

 

Keep in mind that the M8 has a crop factor wrt 35mm film or sensors. Changing formats requires either some flexibility in usage of focal length or getting two lines of lenses. And the investment in lenses can be significant over time Still, there are other manufacturers like CV and Zeiss. I went with a Zeiss Biogon as my first lens and still use it. The downside of non-Leica lenses is, that at or blow 35mm, coding is required to remove the color cast in the corners stemming from the UVIR filters. This coding can be done in numerous ways (search the forum for a week to read).

 

Whatever you do, have fun with it and don't revolve around the what-ifs too often. And yes, as Jaap says, your SLRs may collect dust ...

 

Cheers

Ivo

[lct]

...What would your gut feeling be in my situation?...

My feeling is the M8 is a short time player with its crop format and mandatory filters so its price, as well as that of the M8.2, should drop significantly if an FF M9 is presented next mont with a normal resistance to IR. Then i would wait and see what happens next month unless you are in a hurry of course.

[kiteland]

I had exactly the same issue and ended up going for a Demonstration M8 sold by a very reputable UK Leica dealer. The body came with a full 2 year passport from Leica. Paperwork arrived a few days ago.

The major plus for me was that I paid what I considered was a reasonable price for a second hand body.

The camera was almost as new, had approx 3000 shutter actuations and the money I saved went into glass.

When I do sell on for a 8.2, 8.n or 9.0! I figure the financial hit I will take will be so much better to palate.

If you can find an approved demo model go for that.

[jonoslack]

HI Mark - and welcome.

 

I've thought very hard about this, whether or not there actually is an M9 in September, you should probably assume that there will be, that it will be FF and that it may be tough to get hold of one for a month or so after that. (i.e the most desirable and 'oh why didn't I wait' scenario)

 

 

I've come up with three questions:

 

1. are you going to shoot a lot in low light

2. do you want to use fast wide angles (I mean wider than 35mm equivalent)

3. do you need more than an excellent 10mp

 

if you answer 'yes' to any of those, then you might want to wait and see what an M9 brings.

(here's why)

1. Of course, there's no way of knowing whether the high ISO is better, but one would certainly hope so.

2. As for the wides, a 'real' 28 f2 on the M9 - is a nice small 28 summicron on an M8 you'll need a 21mm - either expensive and big or slow.

3. A2 is absolutely fine with the M8 as long as you don't crop too much

 

If you answer no to all of them, then an M8 will be just the ticket - even assuming a FF M9, and M8 is likely to have advantages with longer lenses (eg a 75 on the M8 is a lovely 100mm for portraits).

 

The other thing I'd say, is that I've used / owned lots and lots of leica lenses, and there are huge swathes of comments about the pros and cons of asph / old / new etc. lenses, but the summarits are rather ignored. When they're mentioned, people are polite, but information from leica suggests they haven't sold in large numbers.

 

Well, I bought a 35 summarit a month or so back, rather on a whim, and I think it's a LOVELY little lens - certainly my most used lens at the moment. It's really small (isn't that what an M is about), and the image quality is splendid.

 

I hope this helps.

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[adli]

In the discussion of wether a FF sensor will bring you better pictures or if the M8 sensor is god enough, you forget the subjectiv element of what is the "correct" size.

 

I grew up using plain old film, so to me a cropped sensor will always be a compromise, and FF the "correct" size (for a camera that historically have been a 35mm camera). If the M9 (whenever it arrives) have FF, it will for me be back to the "correct" size where it should be.

 

I would also then of course not need to rethink what angle the lenses gives. When I use a 28mm I will get the angle I expect from a 28mm, I don't have to think of it as a 35mm with a different lable.

 

Of course, the youngstert who grew up with APS-C cameras, will think different.

[jonoslack]

In the discussion of wether a FF sensor will bring you better pictures or if the M8 sensor is god enough, you forget the subjectiv element of what is the "correct" size.

 

I grew up using plain old film, so to me a cropped sensor will always be a compromise, and FF the "correct" size (for a camera that historically have been a 35mm camera). If the M9 (whenever it arrives) have FF, it will for me be back to the "correct" size where it should be.

 

I would also then of course not need to rethink what angle the lenses gives. When I use a 28mm I will get the angle I expect from a 28mm, I don't have to think of it as a 35mm with a different lable.

 

Of course, the youngstert who grew up with APS-C cameras, will think different.

 

Well, looking at your avatar I assumed you were about 14:D

 

I think this is irrelevant - you could use the same argument with respect to MF as well, you get used to it (at least, I certainly did). I've long since stopped doing translations in my head, I know which lens I want to use, and stick it on the camera, and I can see what the FOV is by looking in the rangefinder / viewfinder / lcd

 

However, there is clearly a difference with sizes of lenses. It's rather ironic in that going to a FF SLR the lenses one needs are, almost without exception, bigger and heavier, but for an M camera it's rather the opposite (especially at the wide angle end). Just compare a 24mm 'lux with a 35mm 'lux!