delander † Posted July 30, 2009 Share #41 Posted July 30, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Any info on the software package, especially the RAW processor, I'm assuming it will shoot in RAW? Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 30, 2009 Posted July 30, 2009 Hi delander †, Take a look here S2 available in October / starting price of £15,996 . I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Rolo Posted July 30, 2009 Share #42 Posted July 30, 2009 Crikey now I'm really worried. I know a lot of photographers through work, but I'm genuinely embarrassed to ask any of them if they'd think about this system Perhaps if we find one that's used it and ask if he can live without it ? Leica always pitched the S2 at a niche professional market, didn't they ? Learning that we're not a target for them should hardly be a surprise. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander † Posted July 30, 2009 Share #43 Posted July 30, 2009 This might encourage Canon or Nikon to enter this market, now that would be interesting. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevelap Posted July 30, 2009 Share #44 Posted July 30, 2009 IIRC Leica said soon after photokina '08 that they were hoping to bring it to market for below €20000 (and that they would try for €15,000) body only. Well, they have achieved that. I'd certainly like it to have been less, but given all that's happened since the initial announcement, and taking into account the Phase/Hassy high-end competition pricing, we shouldn't be too surprised. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolo Posted July 30, 2009 Share #45 Posted July 30, 2009 This might encourage Canon or Nikon to enter this market, now that would be interesting.Jeff That's highly unlikely, maybe not possible. Leica determined the maximum resolution capability of the Canon and Nikon glass before it defined the S2. The glass defines the maximum image quality and meaningful resolution capability and they're at the limit, AFAIK, from Leica info. So, sensors and software will get better, but for Canon and Nikon to go into Hasselblad territory it's a complete new product range and a low volume niche market. Not their ball. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinA Posted July 30, 2009 Share #46 Posted July 30, 2009 That's highly unlikely, maybe not possible. Leica determined the maximum resolution capability of the Canon and Nikon glass before it defined the S2. The glass defines the maximum image quality and meaningful resolution capability and they're at the limit, AFAIK, from Leica info. So, sensors and software will get better, but for Canon and Nikon to go into Hasselblad territory it's a complete new product range and a low volume niche market. Not their ball. Nikon/Canon are very capable of developing a new range of lenses to go along with a new format, they just need to see a market for it. I think they would do their homework a bit better than Leica, Nikon/Canon idea of competitively priced would probably mean with MF cameras and not Leica's idea of competitively priced with a new Porsche. Kevin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander † Posted July 30, 2009 Share #47 Posted July 30, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Well sorry to deviate off topic a bit but I think that both Nikon and Canon could enter the 'MF' market and make it available to more people. Phase and Hasslebald are both using Japanese lenses so I dont see a technical problem at all. Nikon/Canon just have to make their own business calculations. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted July 30, 2009 Share #48 Posted July 30, 2009 Sorry guys, but I think this idea that Canon and Nikon are going to look at the S2 launch as some sort of springboard for a foray into this market is far-fetched and (bluntly) irrelevant to what may become a massive disaster for Leica as a whole. Even if those companies did want to enter this particular field (very highly dubious), they definitely have no incentive to choose to do it now, and time to market would be at least 1,5 - 2 years. I'd seriously like to know whether anyone has any clue whatsoever as to demand/pre-booking etc for the S2? Aside from buying a used film camera I was actually pondering a second new M8 sometime over the next six months. This pricing for a potential albatross system has shaken me up today. Someone cheer me up here! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhoersch Posted July 30, 2009 Share #49 Posted July 30, 2009 Someone cheer me up here! Difficult, or is there still anyone around here who is willing to take Leica seriously after these announcements? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinA Posted July 30, 2009 Share #50 Posted July 30, 2009 Sorry guys, but I think this idea that Canon and Nikon are going to look at the S2 launch as some sort of springboard for a foray into this market is far-fetched and (bluntly) irrelevant to what may become a massive disaster for Leica as a whole. Even if those companies did want to enter this particular field (very highly dubious), they definitely have no incentive to choose to do it now, and time to market would be at least 1,5 - 2 years. I'd seriously like to know whether anyone has any clue whatsoever as to demand/pre-booking etc for the S2? Aside from buying a used film camera I was actually pondering a second new M8 sometime over the next six months. This pricing for a potential albatross system has shaken me up today. Someone cheer me up here! I think the demand just evaporated. It's unbelievable, no one expected a Leica to ever be cheap and after all the noise about competitive pricing you would of thought it would be at least competitive with Hassy/Phaseone but this is unbelievable. The market it's aimed at it needs to be a step up from 35mm digital, not a step up from the MF systems. Clueless pricing. I think if it had been under £10k with a lens it would sell even £12-13k it would have a chance. This shows a total lack of understanding of todays market, to little, to much, to late. Kevin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevelap Posted July 30, 2009 Share #51 Posted July 30, 2009 I think the demand just evaporated.It's unbelievable, no one expected a Leica to ever be cheap and after all the noise about competitive pricing you would of thought it would be at least competitive with Hassy/Phaseone but this is unbelievable. The market it's aimed at it needs to be a step up from 35mm digital, not a step up from the MF systems. Clueless pricing. I think if it had been under £10k with a lens it would sell even £12-13k it would have a chance. This shows a total lack of understanding of todays market, to little, to much, to late. Kevin. I'm not quite sure what you mean here (other than that you can't afford one, and you won't be alone in that club:)), those prices are on a par with high-end Phase/Hassy kit. They are also close to what Leica hinted at after photokina last year so we shouldn't be too surprised. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard.no Posted July 30, 2009 Share #52 Posted July 30, 2009 Disagree.The price is quite reasonable for what you get. Sensor and camera are well within the pricing range of a Phase One system based on Hasselblad cameras and similar cameras. The lenses must perform great - Leica lenses do that - to justify the price. No question that the camera will outperform most of the competition. (...) My major question right now is: What is the shutter speed of the leaf shutter. We just got prices, still not all the specs. I agree. I am tempted to draw a comparison to what happened when Nikon introduced the D3X at USD8,000, a standard full frame 35mm digital SLR, which was said to be a D3 with a different sensor. Could it really justify a $3,000 premium? It harvested rage among "forumers", reviewers and some professionals. A few months later it seems it sells well, and that professionals appreciate its imaging qualities. I suspect this will be the case with the S2 camera as well. "But you'll need a full new set of lenses for your S2", you say. Well, many D3X buyers have had to buy into the newest lenses to achieve the highest possible resolution from the sensor. The fact that the S2 and its lenses are from Leica should further suggest that you, if you were really ever in the market for the S2, should be quite satisfied with the announced prices. We are yet to see the results, but I wouldn't be surprised if the lens reviews will contain words like "simply outstanding", "best 180mm ever produced by any manufacturer", "extreme overall sharpness and very good contrast". Are you willing to pay for it, or are you satisfied with the lesser camera and optics? All this being said, I have to admit that being an amateur photographer this is totally out of my league, simply because I can't afford it. But if I was even close to afford a S2 and a couple of lenses, I'd make a stretch and buy it, simply because I am a sucker for quality items. And I bet I have others with me on this one, in this forum as well. Just think about it Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJP Posted July 30, 2009 Share #53 Posted July 30, 2009 +1 see my comment here http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/93257-lets-have-out-13.html#post980212 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
markowich Posted July 30, 2009 Share #54 Posted July 30, 2009 the top nikon and canon lenses have quite some headroom to accomodate higher megapixel sensors. you will not have to wait for too long to get confirmation of this on the canon side (it will take longer for nikon, but i suspect it will be very well done once they are ready). for canikon the S2 launch -at the given price point- is totally irrelevant, it will not infinge at all on their sales. i am curious to see mr kaufmann's exit strategy. peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted July 30, 2009 Share #55 Posted July 30, 2009 ...I wouldn't be surprised if the lens reviews will contain words like "simply outstanding", "best 180mm ever produced by any manufacturer", "extreme overall sharpness and very good contrast". Are you willing to pay for it, or are you satisfied with the lesser camera and optics? I hope you're right. I'm worried though, because in my experience the photographers I've met and work with are not really gear-heads the way many amateurs (and forum-hangouts!) are. Now we're talking about pros who get flown around the world on assignments, not half-hobby shooters. I have no idea what their financial situation really is because there's a whole department at this agency that handles bookings and payment, and I don't have any involvement in that side of things whatsoever. But my impression from hanging with these people is that their interest in equipment is much lower than amateurs may think. One woman who produced one of Sweden's best-selling photography books last year (who happens also to live around the corner from me here) is still using a large-format folding film camera, and her work is exquisite. I guess I'm hoping there are enough enthusiasts to make this a success! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 30, 2009 Share #56 Posted July 30, 2009 Man, that is a totally crazy price, especially since you have to pay extra for "good" service (at best.) I wish them luck but at this price I seriously doubt they'll sell 500 units let alone the 10000 they hope for. Why bother building a new system from the ground up to compete with real medium format systems when the end price is a lot more than the competition? Totally crazy business strategy. They didn't hope for 10.000 That is a myth. They hope for a double-digit percentage of the market for this kind of camera, which they put at 10.000.... So- I guess Leica will be well satisfied if they sell 2000 units over the complete production run of the camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted July 30, 2009 Share #57 Posted July 30, 2009 They didn't hope for 10.000 That is a myth. They hope for a double-digit percentage of the market for this kind of camera, which they put at 10.000.... So- I guess Leica will be well satisfied if they sell 2000 units over the complete production run of the camera. Seriously? Well that's really a relief, because 2000 cameras should not really be too hard to sell worldwide. I'm amazed at the low estimate for the market as a whole though. What's more, if their aim is 2000, then it probably won't be a disaster if they only sell 1000. That must be a realistic proposition. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted July 30, 2009 Share #58 Posted July 30, 2009 I'm not quite sure what you mean here (other than that you can't afford one, and you won't be alone in that club:)), those prices are on a par with high-end Phase/Hassy kit.They are also close to what Leica hinted at after photokina last year so we shouldn't be too surprised. Yep, the quoted prices are about what was to be expected; no surprises here. Some daydreamers’ bubbles have burst, but that’s life. No, I cannot afford an S2, but I knew that beforehand. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJP Posted July 30, 2009 Share #59 Posted July 30, 2009 Double digit percentage means: 10% or more. So they aim at at least 1000 items out of the total market of 10.000. I do not recall if this is per year or cumulative, I believe it is the latter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zapp Posted July 30, 2009 Share #60 Posted July 30, 2009 Please do . I have one of the hottest 150mm 2.8 lenses on the market for my Phase system and it is deadly but 3100 USD. Now that is even a little high. Most expensive Mamiya/Phase lens the 28mm f4 D tops out at 4800 or so from a good dealer. Not doing any of the lens conversion prices for the S2 but immediately I don't see anything approaching less than 4k. Am I missing something here but the lens prices are choking me and a normal lens at 4300 USD without the central shutter and with at 5600. Even the best lenses for a tech camera made are not this high. Does the phrase i will stick with what i have sound reasonable. Certainly does to me. LOL I assume you know that a tech camera lens has no focusing tube, no chance to have floating elements, hard to find at f2.5 and that prices around 4000 Euros for modern lens designs that can cope with digital sensors are not completely uncommon. Several 35 mm Leica lenses are more expensive than your examples, so what is the fuss all about. If you are happy with Phase One and Mamiya lenses stick to it. I don't see a huge market given the proposed prices either, but that does not at all mean that something is overpriced. The higher the MSRP the more rebate you can get :-) btw it is not Leica's fault that the $ isn't worth much these days. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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