AlanG Posted August 4, 2009 Share #361 Posted August 4, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Eastern Perspective it might be considered exotic to have a camera system built in Germany? I don't know? But it's possible....From what I understand, Linhof is doing very well in China. I think the Linhofs may be good because of their unique designs. But I think the work is mostly being done by CNC machines now, not old world machinists. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 4, 2009 Posted August 4, 2009 Hi AlanG, Take a look here S2 available in October / starting price of £15,996. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
haribo Posted August 4, 2009 Share #362 Posted August 4, 2009 All this talk is irrelevant. That's how the world goes and neither myself nor anybody else here are in the position to change that. (Unless some here happen to be in real life the political and/or business movers and shakers that could indeed make a difference. Doubt it though.) Back to the S2. I never said it's a good or bad camera. Nobody other than the forces at mighty Leica know that as of now. But i still believe the camera is way overpriced for what it is. 37.5MP are not 50MP. Hasselblad/Fuji lenses are not that bad either but they don't promote their 50MP camera as a 62.5MP one. Besides that, high-end MF pro gear is expensive. I am going to spend that kind of money anyway but I will make my decision based on research and what's best for me. Not on artificially created marketing hype. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted August 4, 2009 Share #363 Posted August 4, 2009 We disagree on this Simon. I don't see basic differences between Riva, Breguet and Leica. Both need the best staff available and the latter are not paid in yuans so far. So we agree to disagree, LCT ... I don't mind Leica continuing to charge a premium or letting the German staff do what they want/are used to do, the point is, the stuff they build needs to be up to snuff. I don't know if they're paying a decent salary to their employees based on local standards (in Germany), but judging by their cameras' relatively high rate of failure I don't think they've already have the best staff on board (not everyone on their payroll at least). If they have absolute confidence in the quality and reliability of the S2, why do they even bother with the premium/platinum services? all should have been included in warranty. Did they ask you to pay extra for premium service when you buy your Breguet watch? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest malland Posted August 4, 2009 Share #364 Posted August 4, 2009 I think it's a very relevant discussion. It's true that "Made in germany" might not mean as much as it once did to Westerners (although it still means something to me) But, I think MIG is still well respected by the emerging Asian Market. Leica M does very well in Japan and part of the success could very well be attributed to where it is made. There is the old cliche that "an expert is somebody from out of town." Is it possible, that from some Eastern Perspective it might be considered exotic to have a camera system built in Germany? I don't know? But it's possible....From what I understand, Linhof is doing very well in China. There is a massive transfer of wealth taking place between the West and Asia at the moment.... It's possible that Leica could sell more of their cameras to the Far East than to the West within the not-too-distant future. I agree that it's relevant to discuss the pros and cons of Leica producing in a low-wage country, which is why I raised the issue in the first place; what I think is off topic is a discussion of the "morality" of low wages along the lines of some of the postings above. There certainly is the prestige factor of Leica as a German camera among rich consumers in Asia, but my feeling is that good marketing could maintain the quality image despite production in a low-wage country without trying to be the "Patek-Philippe of cameras" and all that entails, if you know what I mean. —Mitch/Potomac, MD Bangkok Hysteria©: Book Project Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
haribo Posted August 4, 2009 Share #365 Posted August 4, 2009 I think the German and Swiss workers are being exploited. Imagine going to work all day and doing nothing but painting lines on a lens barrel. Or spending 40 hours a week straining through a loupe just so they can insert some parts into an expensive watch for some rich guy. How mind numbing just because they needed money to survive. How did society get to the point where it abused people in such a way? Where is the fulfillment in such jobs? Can't machines be designed to do this drudgery and we can retrain the workers to use their brains? Workers should rise up and revolt! 40 hour work week??? Germans can only dream of such luck. Mostly they have to slave through either a 35 or 37.5 hour work week (7 or 7.5 hours a day). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted August 4, 2009 Share #366 Posted August 4, 2009 Seems to me there are some people who don't like Leica rangefinders; don't like the way Leica cameras are made; don't agree with Leica pricing; don't approve of the planning or execution, the marketing, the QC or even the location where they're constructed. But they sure are eager to hang around on the Leica forum telling us all how things should be done. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest malland Posted August 4, 2009 Share #367 Posted August 4, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) plasticman, I don't know whether you aimed this at me or someone else, but all it shows is that you seem to prefer personal attacks to substantive discussion. —Mitch/Potomac, MD Scratching the Surface© Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted August 4, 2009 Share #368 Posted August 4, 2009 plasticman, I don't know whether you aimed this at me or someone else, but all it shows is that you seem to prefer personal attacks to substantive discussion. —Mitch/Potomac, MD Scratching the Surface© Well as a matter of fact it wasn't aimed at you, but there are some participants who's only contribution amounts to yet another negative statement about Leica or a Leica product. I'm by no means uncritical myself - I have plenty of gripes, believe me - but I must say I'm tired of the people who only pop up when they think they smell blood. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted August 4, 2009 Share #369 Posted August 4, 2009 ...If they have absolute confidence in the quality and reliability of the S2, why do they even bother with the premium/platinum services?... Is it more expensive that Hassy's Camera Care Plan? Just curious. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
haribo Posted August 4, 2009 Share #370 Posted August 4, 2009 Well as a matter of fact it wasn't aimed at you, but there are some participants who's only contribution amounts to yet another negative statement about Leica or a Leica product. I'm by no means uncritical myself - I have plenty of gripes, believe me - but I must say I'm tired of the people who only pop up when they think they smell blood. was it me????? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
felipe-m Posted August 4, 2009 Share #371 Posted August 4, 2009 Purchasing products whose manufacturing and marketing respects human rights, the environment, fair trade, etc. often means paying a premium for them, which many people are willing to do. It is a part of the decision process of purchase, but obviously, not for everybody, not even for the majority. Sad fact... I agree that it's relevant to discuss the pros and cons of Leica producing in a low-wage country, which is why I raised the issue in the first place; what I think is off topic is a discussion of the "morality" of low wages along the lines of some of the postings above. So If I understand correctly, you think those humanistic and environmental aspects are off topic and they do not belong to the relevant points in a discussion about "...the pros and cons of Leica producing in a low-wage country..."? Well, then your point becomes sadly very clear I have to say... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 4, 2009 Share #372 Posted August 4, 2009 I think the German and Swiss workers are being exploited. Imagine going to work all day and doing nothing but painting lines on a lens barrel. Or spending 40 hours a week straining through a loupe just so they can insert some parts into an expensive watch for some rich guy. How mind numbing just because they needed money to survive. How did society get to the point where it abused people in such a way? Where is the fulfillment in such jobs? Can't machines be designed to do this drudgery and we can retrain the workers to use their brains? Workers should rise up and revolt! Interesting point. Leica tried to find a machine that could accurately paint the edges of the lenses black. It turned out to be impossible - so there are four ladies doing the job. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted August 4, 2009 Share #373 Posted August 4, 2009 Is it more expensive that Hassy's Camera Care Plan? Just curious. Leica's service plan is more expensive than Hassy's, just for example, to include a free loaner (during repair) you need to pay US$3795 for the Leica platinum plan, Hassy includes the loaner in its CCP for Euro 1395 quoted (or US$2000 equivalent). The "official" Leica plan also doesn't include 7x24 support which is covered by the Hassy CCP. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted August 4, 2009 Share #374 Posted August 4, 2009 So If I understand correctly, you think those humanistic and environmental aspects are off topic and they do not belong to the relevant points in a discussion about "...the pros and cons of Leica producing in a low-wage country..."? Speaking of morality and/or humanity, Leica probably should reconsider their decision to even allow export of Leica cameras/lenses into these countries, it's very likely that many of these 10 grand Noctiluxes, or 30 grand S2s etc will fall into the hands of slave masters, corrupted officials, cold blood warlords, etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted August 4, 2009 Share #375 Posted August 4, 2009 Speaking of morality and/or humanity, Leica probably should reconsider their decision to even allow export of Leica cameras/lenses into these countries, it's very likely that many of these 10 grand Noctiluxes, or 30 grand S2s etc will fall into the hands of slave masters, corrupted officials, cold blood warlords, etc. Yeah, and the cameras should not be allowed to be used to photograph and promote "unacceptable" products or concepts either. Why not relocate the Leica factory to Detroit and help out the unemployed highly skilled workers there? Don't Germans remember the Marshall Plan? All shoes should be made in Italy even if that leaves most people shoeless. And what's up with the White House serving non-American beer? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfarkas Posted August 4, 2009 Share #376 Posted August 4, 2009 Leica's service plan is more expensive than Hassy's, just for example, to include a free loaner (during repair) you need to pay US$3795 for the Leica platinum plan, Hassy includes the loaner in its CCP for Euro 1395 quoted (or US$2000 equivalent). The "official" Leica plan also doesn't include 7x24 support which is covered by the Hassy CCP. The Platinum Service also includes a free shutter and/or central shutter replacement. This is not just coverage if the shutter goes bad. That is what the warranty is for. Say that you have had the camera for 1 year 11 months and 3 weeks. You've shot over 100,000 shots and everything is still working fine. Before the warranty expires you can send the camera in for a full maintenance CLA and a brand new shutter, thus extending the life of the camera. This is the biggest difference between the Premium and Platinum Packages. Hasselblad will charge you $1800 for a shutter replacement (per lens) and it is not included in their CCP. Also, the Leica service packages (both Premium and Platinum) give a 30% discount on repairs due to accidental (non-warranty-covered) damage. For most users, the Premium Service Pacakge is the best bet anyway. $1,495 for the camera and $495 for lenses. Regarding 24/7, this detail hasn't been clarified yet. Both the Premium and Platinum Pacakges have a dedicated support hotline and it may very well be 24/7. I can tell you that as a dealer, I would be available and reachable 24/7 for my customers. Additionally, I will have loaner equipment available for them even if they didn't get the Platium Package. So, there is a certain service level that you can expect from Leica directly and additional service that you should expect from a good dealer. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
felipe-m Posted August 4, 2009 Share #377 Posted August 4, 2009 Speaking of morality and/or humanity, Leica probably should reconsider their decision to even allow export of Leica cameras/lenses into these countries, it's very likely that many of these 10 grand Noctiluxes, or 30 grand S2s etc will fall into the hands of slave masters, corrupted officials, cold blood warlords, etc. Indeed...! Yet, if they spend their time shooting a Leica, it just might cut down on their shooting with other types of machines, also imported from rich countries, although perhaps a bit more destructive... Change war for art, how poetic! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest malland Posted August 4, 2009 Share #378 Posted August 4, 2009 ...So If I understand correctly, you think those humanistic and environmental aspects are off topic and they do not belong to the relevant points in a discussion about "...the pros and cons of Leica producing in a low-wage country..."? Well, then your point becomes sadly very clear I have to say... Not at all: there is no reason that all the dramatic negative points that you delight in enumerating should be inherent in Leica producing in such countries. Also, your approach implicitly assumes that industrial development in low-wage countries will not at least attenuate some of these human rights and environmental problems, which is contradicted by the experience of the most successful ones, again, Japan, Korea and Taiwan. —Mitch/Potomac, MD Bangkok Hysteria©: Book Project Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted August 4, 2009 Share #379 Posted August 4, 2009 was it me????? No it wasn't you! I'm sorry I wrote my pointless post now - I was just exasperated. Let's forget it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
haribo Posted August 4, 2009 Share #380 Posted August 4, 2009 Regarding 24/7, this detail hasn't been clarified yet. Both the Premium and Platinum Pacakges have a dedicated support hotline and it may very well be 24/7. I can tell you that as a dealer, I would be available and reachable 24/7 for my customers. Additionally, I will have loaner equipment available for them even if they didn't get the Platium Package. So, there is a certain service level that you can expect from Leica directly and additional service that you should expect from a good dealer. David David that's indeed great service you're giving your customers. Unfortunately, I'm located in Toronto, Canada. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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