mooky Posted August 3, 2009 Share #321 Posted August 3, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Dr. Kaufmann makes his money by owning high-tech companies. It made him and his family the richest family in Austria. If you are interested you can research ACM holdings, it is no secret. That makes me assume he knows exactly what he is doing and I trust his judgement more than that of all the armchair CEOs on this forum who pontificate without the information, knowledge and/or skills he appears to have. I agree completely, well said. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 3, 2009 Posted August 3, 2009 Hi mooky, Take a look here S2 available in October / starting price of £15,996. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
SteveYork Posted August 3, 2009 Share #322 Posted August 3, 2009 I believe somewhere between 20 and 30 million Euro over the last 3 years. First I heard of it was from Maike Harberts at Photokina 2006. When I asked her if the R10 would have a FF sensor, she replied, "...or larger." This was also the show that Leica tried to buy a 51% stake in Sinar. I'd say they had a pretty good idea of what was to come with regards to entering the MFD market. Then, they added abot 100 employees over the last 18 months. A lot has gone into the S2. David And what's the goal -- to sell 1000 to 2000 units pluses lenses per annum? The abandoned R users have a basis to question the management decisions. Even if they sell 2000 cameras over the next ten years, and taking the midway point of your R&D figures, that makes 1250 euros per customer. That seems a lot. The resources spent on the S2 only made sense in my mind, because they said it would trickle down to the next R camera. But that's just my opinion, and as the saying goes, we all have them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giordano Posted August 3, 2009 Share #323 Posted August 3, 2009 That's been my point earlier in this interminable thread, that diverting resources to a camera that is expected to sell only 1,000 units per year — if indeed the goal is really this low — does not make any sense financially. I'm not aware of any evidence that the goal is this low. At the Hessenpark gathering Dr K was reported as saying "Total market [by implication for pro MF digital] are about 10,000 cameras per year" "Leica is going for a at least two digit market share" which coyly tells us only that the target is more than 10% of this market. In addition they will be counting on some high end DSLR or 35mm types moving over, the ones for whom Phase and 'blad are too big and slow and Nikon and Canon IQ not quite good enough. And one or two dentists. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveYork Posted August 3, 2009 Share #324 Posted August 3, 2009 Assuming David's figure is correct and giving the S2 a 5 year life (optimistic), that would mean that just to amortize the development costs of say €25M, would mean €5,000 per camera. Now wonder it is expensive. Wilson You beat me to the math. But now I read here that the technology may leap over to the M line. That certainly would make a lot of sense if feasible. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted August 3, 2009 Share #325 Posted August 3, 2009 I appreciate the fact that Leicas are handmade in Germany. Thing is though part of me wonders if if my M8 had of been assembled in Japan or even Thailand it wouldn't freeze up all the time. My Nikon doesn't. Leica really had better of gotten their act together with the S2. As there is no existing base of system users (like M and R) any sort of M8 like issues and this camera is sunk. Many of us tolerated the issues with the M8 because we came to the camera from film M's and there is no other option. I wish Leica well with the S2. Personally I'll just continue to shoot MF film. My $10k Imacon seems like chump change compared to this or any MFD system for that matter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted August 3, 2009 Share #326 Posted August 3, 2009 Handmaking makes no sense at all in the Silicon Age ... please go hand make a "maestro" chip for me, and I'm going to put down my money right now for any price you'll charge. LOL For Versace, Hermes, etc, ... perhaps. Has any of you ever seen how Canon and/or Nikon put their premium lenses, and the DSLRs together? Porsche was on the brink of crapping out till Wendelin Wiedeking hired a bunch of retired Toyota engineers to revamp their processes. In a sense, it's the Japanese who saved Germany's pride. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevelap Posted August 3, 2009 Share #327 Posted August 3, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Dr. Kaufmann makes his money by owning high-tech companies. It made him and his family the richest family in Austria. If you are interested you can research ACM holdings, it is no secret. That makes me assume he knows exactly what he is doing and I trust his judgement more than that of all the armchair CEOs on this forum who pontificate without the information, knowledge and/or skills he appears to have. I agree completely, well said. Agreed x 2, spot on Jaap. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted August 3, 2009 Share #328 Posted August 3, 2009 Agreed x 2, spot on Jaap. Thirded... Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest malland Posted August 3, 2009 Share #329 Posted August 3, 2009 Dr. Kaufmann makes his money by owning high-tech companies. It made him and his family the richest family in Austria. If you are interested you can research ACM holdings, it is no secret. That makes me assume he knows exactly what he is doing and I trust his judgement more than that of all the armchair CEOs on this forum who pontificate without the information, knowledge and/or skills he appears to have.You can bet on the jockey if you wish, but my only point was that, if the target is only 1,000 units per year as so many have written above, then this looks like a financial disaster. Now, if the real target is 10,000-15,000 per year, and if that is achievable, then this initiative takes on a different complexion. —Mitch/Potomac, MD Scratching the Surface© Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest malland Posted August 3, 2009 Share #330 Posted August 3, 2009 ...Porsche was on the brink of crapping out till Wendelin Wiedeking hired a bunch of retired Toyota engineers to revamp their processes. In a sense, it's the Japanese who saved Germany's pride.Daimler-Benz was in a similar situation in the eighties or so: I read a description of how Mercedes parts and engines would come of the line and then a whole team of highly skilled workers would inspect and file things down until achieved a perfect fit — this was extremely expense and Daimler came under great financial pressure. Eventually they adopted Japanese production methods and lowered their costs. I think that people who believe a real Leica has to be made in Germany don't really understand modern manufacturing methods. —Mitch/Potomac, MD Bangkok Hysteria@ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted August 3, 2009 Share #331 Posted August 3, 2009 We still don't know how much has been invested, nor what the write down period will be This investment will be repaid over a number of years. Any start up company that wants to take 10% of a market in it's first year is being pretty ambitious. I don't think Apple managed that with the original iPhone, but if Leica think that they canofo it ( in this very small market ) then good luck to them. I for one am not prepared to write Leica off yet, even if there are people here that do. If their shares were traded normally, I'd seriously consider an investment ( and I don't mean buying a lens... ) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted August 3, 2009 Share #332 Posted August 3, 2009 I think that people who believe a real Leica has to be made in Germany don't really understand modern manufacturing methods. People who think that Leicas can be made with modern Japanese methods, really don't understand Leica at all... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted August 3, 2009 Share #333 Posted August 3, 2009 High end products require the best staff available. Not sure that Toyota could make a Ferrari or Cosina a Summilux asph so far. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted August 3, 2009 Share #334 Posted August 3, 2009 High end products require the best staff available. Not sure that Toyota could make a Ferrari or Cosina a Summilux asph so far. Toyota and Cosina are complete two different extremes in the industrial food chain. The former is a technology power house while we can argue to death whether Toyota can duplicate what Ferrari has done but no one can deny they're both at the engineering forefront of auto industry, albeit winning in different areas, and the later is no more than a family business in the countryside, they do the best they can do. After all, none of the S2 core components is built in Germany, so what's the point stamping "Made In Germany" on its shell? Which reminds me of what we see on the back of a iPod or iPhone ... Designed in California, Assembled in China. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted August 3, 2009 Share #335 Posted August 3, 2009 People who think that Leicas can be made with modern Japanese methods, really don't understand Leica at all... Yeah. Why would you want a camera that works perfecly all the time? Where's the fun in that? I think it's important not to mix up the difference between design and manufacturing. German products may be designed more to your liking but that doesn't always mean made in Germany is better than made anywhere else. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest malland Posted August 3, 2009 Share #336 Posted August 3, 2009 Reminds of a British film from the thirties with the two cricket fans, Caldicot and Charters, from "The Lady Vanishes". There's a question of a washing machine of which the British version costs twice the German one, to which one of them answers, "but it's British quality". People who think that Leicas cannot be made with modern manufacturing methods don't understand modern manufacturing. When Mark Norton documented taking apart the M8 someone commented that the series of photos of the disassembly showed how well made and "modern" the Leica was. The reality, as Mark Norton stated, was that actually the opposite was true: the camera was crammed full of off-the shelf parts with little or no integration — if the camera had been built for higher production volumes with a higher degree of integration it could be more reliable and better designed. —Mitch/Potomac, MD Scratching the Surface© Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted August 3, 2009 Share #337 Posted August 3, 2009 Yeah. Why would you want a camera that works perfecly all the time? Where's the fun in that? I think it's important not to mix up the difference between design and manufacturing. German products may be designed more to your liking but that doesn't always mean made in Germany is better than made anywhere else. Not necessarily made better, but I for one don't mind spending more on an item in the knowledge that the person making it (or growing it, or cooking it) has received a good salary in the process. I totally fail to see why we who are rich enough to own and enjoy such luxury products should want them to be made cheaper so that we can share even less of our affluence with others in this world. It is ugly greed pure and simple. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJP Posted August 3, 2009 Share #338 Posted August 3, 2009 Not necessarily made better, but I for one don't mind spending more on an item in the knowledge that the person making it (or growing it, or cooking it) has received a good salary in the process.I totally fail to see why we who are rich enough to own and enjoy such luxury products should want them to be made cheaper so that we can share even less of our affluence with others in this world. It is ugly greed pure and simple. + 1I feel happy to support a 'artisan' company that has managed to survive for so long despite (or because of) German salaries. They have my respect. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted August 3, 2009 Share #339 Posted August 3, 2009 ...Which reminds me of what we see on the back of a iPod or iPhone ... Designed in California, Assembled in China... Just plastic things Simon. Warn me when Breguet watches, Jaeger Lecoultre clocks, Wilson Audio speakers, Lalique glass or Riva yachts are assembled in China. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveYork Posted August 4, 2009 Share #340 Posted August 4, 2009 Agreed x 2, spot on Jaap. Bahhhhh! I hear a bunch of lamb. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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