S2 available in October / starting price of £15,996

[mooky]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Dr. Kaufmann makes his money by owning high-tech companies. It made him and his family the richest family in Austria. If you are interested you can research ACM holdings, it is no secret. That makes me assume he knows exactly what he is doing and I trust his judgement more than that of all the armchair CEOs on this forum who pontificate without the information, knowledge and/or skills he appears to have.

 

I agree completely, well said.

[SteveYork]

I believe somewhere between 20 and 30 million Euro over the last 3 years.

 

First I heard of it was from Maike Harberts at Photokina 2006. When I asked her if the R10 would have a FF sensor, she replied, "...or larger." This was also the show that Leica tried to buy a 51% stake in Sinar. I'd say they had a pretty good idea of what was to come with regards to entering the MFD market.

 

Then, they added abot 100 employees over the last 18 months.

 

A lot has gone into the S2.

 

David

 

And what's the goal -- to sell 1000 to 2000 units pluses lenses per annum? The abandoned R users have a basis to question the management decisions. Even if they sell 2000 cameras over the next ten years, and taking the midway point of your R&D figures, that makes 1250 euros per customer. That seems a lot. The resources spent on the S2 only made sense in my mind, because they said it would trickle down to the next R camera. But that's just my opinion, and as the saying goes, we all have them.

[giordano]

That's been my point earlier in this interminable thread, that diverting resources to a camera that is expected to sell only 1,000 units per year — if indeed the goal is really this low — does not make any sense financially.

 

I'm not aware of any evidence that the goal is this low. At the Hessenpark gathering Dr K was reported as saying

"Total market [by implication for pro MF digital] are about 10,000 cameras per year"

"Leica is going for a at least two digit market share"

which coyly tells us only that the target is more than 10% of this market.

 

In addition they will be counting on some high end DSLR or 35mm types moving over, the ones for whom Phase and 'blad are too big and slow and Nikon and Canon IQ not quite good enough. And one or two dentists.

[SteveYork]

Assuming David's figure is correct and giving the S2 a 5 year life (optimistic), that would mean that just to amortize the development costs of say €25M, would mean €5,000 per camera. Now wonder it is expensive.

 

Wilson

 

You beat me to the math. But now I read here that the technology may leap over to the M line. That certainly would make a lot of sense if feasible.

[charlesphoto99]

I appreciate the fact that Leicas are handmade in Germany. Thing is though part of me wonders if if my M8 had of been assembled in Japan or even Thailand it wouldn't freeze up all the time. My Nikon doesn't. Leica really had better of gotten their act together with the S2. As there is no existing base of system users (like M and R) any sort of M8 like issues and this camera is sunk. Many of us tolerated the issues with the M8 because we came to the camera from film M's and there is no other option.

 

I wish Leica well with the S2. Personally I'll just continue to shoot MF film. My $10k Imacon seems like chump change compared to this or any MFD system for that matter.

[sdai]

Handmaking makes no sense at all in the Silicon Age ... please go hand make a "maestro" chip for me, and I'm going to put down my money right now for any price you'll charge. LOL

 

For Versace, Hermes, etc, ... perhaps.

 

Has any of you ever seen how Canon and/or Nikon put their premium lenses, and the DSLRs together?

 

Porsche was on the brink of crapping out till Wendelin Wiedeking hired a bunch of retired Toyota engineers to revamp their processes. In a sense, it's the Japanese who saved Germany's pride.

[stevelap]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Dr. Kaufmann makes his money by owning high-tech companies. It made him and his family the richest family in Austria. If you are interested you can research ACM holdings, it is no secret. That makes me assume he knows exactly what he is doing and I trust his judgement more than that of all the armchair CEOs on this forum who pontificate without the information, knowledge and/or skills he appears to have.

 

I agree completely, well said.

 

Agreed x 2, spot on Jaap.

[bill]

Agreed x 2, spot on Jaap.

 

Thirded...

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[Guest malland]

Dr. Kaufmann makes his money by owning high-tech companies. It made him and his family the richest family in Austria. If you are interested you can research ACM holdings, it is no secret. That makes me assume he knows exactly what he is doing and I trust his judgement more than that of all the armchair CEOs on this forum who pontificate without the information, knowledge and/or skills he appears to have.

You can bet on the jockey if you wish, but my only point was that, if the target is only 1,000 units per year as so many have written above, then this looks like a financial disaster. Now, if the real target is 10,000-15,000 per year, and if that is achievable, then this initiative takes on a different complexion.

 

—Mitch/Potomac, MD

Scratching the Surface©

[Guest malland]

...Porsche was on the brink of crapping out till Wendelin Wiedeking hired a bunch of retired Toyota engineers to revamp their processes. In a sense, it's the Japanese who saved Germany's pride.

Daimler-Benz was in a similar situation in the eighties or so: I read a description of how Mercedes parts and engines would come of the line and then a whole team of highly skilled workers would inspect and file things down until achieved a perfect fit — this was extremely expense and Daimler came under great financial pressure. Eventually they adopted Japanese production methods and lowered their costs.

 

I think that people who believe a real Leica has to be made in Germany don't really understand modern manufacturing methods.

 

—Mitch/Potomac, MD

Bangkok Hysteria@

[andybarton]

We still don't know how much has been invested, nor what the write down period will be

 

This investment will be repaid over a number of years.

 

Any start up company that wants to take 10% of a market in it's first year is being pretty ambitious. I don't think Apple managed that with the original iPhone, but if Leica think that they canofo it ( in this very small market ) then good luck to them.

 

I for one am not prepared to write Leica off yet, even if there are people here that do. If their shares were traded normally, I'd seriously consider an investment ( and I don't mean buying a lens... )

[andybarton]

I think that people who believe a real Leica has to be made in Germany don't really understand modern manufacturing methods.

 

 

People who think that Leicas can be made with modern Japanese methods, really don't understand Leica at all...

[lct]

High end products require the best staff available. Not sure that Toyota could make a Ferrari or Cosina a Summilux asph so far.

[sdai]

High end products require the best staff available. Not sure that Toyota could make a Ferrari or Cosina a Summilux asph so far.

 

Toyota and Cosina are complete two different extremes in the industrial food chain.

 

The former is a technology power house while we can argue to death whether Toyota can duplicate what Ferrari has done but no one can deny they're both at the engineering forefront of auto industry, albeit winning in different areas, and the later is no more than a family business in the countryside, they do the best they can do.

 

After all, none of the S2 core components is built in Germany, so what's the point stamping "Made In Germany" on its shell?

 

Which reminds me of what we see on the back of a iPod or iPhone ... Designed in California, Assembled in China.

[charlesphoto99]

People who think that Leicas can be made with modern Japanese methods, really don't understand Leica at all...

 

Yeah. Why would you want a camera that works perfecly all the time? Where's the fun in that?

 

I think it's important not to mix up the difference between design and manufacturing. German products may be designed more to your liking but that doesn't always mean made in Germany is better than made anywhere else.

[Guest malland]

Reminds of a British film from the thirties with the two cricket fans, Caldicot and Charters, from "The Lady Vanishes". There's a question of a washing machine of which the British version costs twice the German one, to which one of them answers, "but it's British quality".

 

People who think that Leicas cannot be made with modern manufacturing methods don't understand modern manufacturing. When Mark Norton documented taking apart the M8 someone commented that the series of photos of the disassembly showed how well made and "modern" the Leica was. The reality, as Mark Norton stated, was that actually the opposite was true: the camera was crammed full of off-the shelf parts with little or no integration — if the camera had been built for higher production volumes with a higher degree of integration it could be more reliable and better designed.

 

—Mitch/Potomac, MD

Scratching the Surface©

[plasticman]

Yeah. Why would you want a camera that works perfecly all the time? Where's the fun in that?

 

I think it's important not to mix up the difference between design and manufacturing. German products may be designed more to your liking but that doesn't always mean made in Germany is better than made anywhere else.

 

Not necessarily made better, but I for one don't mind spending more on an item in the knowledge that the person making it (or growing it, or cooking it) has received a good salary in the process.

I totally fail to see why we who are rich enough to own and enjoy such luxury products should want them to be made cheaper so that we can share even less of our affluence with others in this world. It is ugly greed pure and simple.

[SJP]

Not necessarily made better, but I for one don't mind spending more on an item in the knowledge that the person making it (or growing it, or cooking it) has received a good salary in the process.

I totally fail to see why we who are rich enough to own and enjoy such luxury products should want them to be made cheaper so that we can share even less of our affluence with others in this world. It is ugly greed pure and simple.

+ 1

I feel happy to support a 'artisan' company that has managed to survive for so long despite (or because of) German salaries. They have my respect.

[lct]

...Which reminds me of what we see on the back of a iPod or iPhone ... Designed in California, Assembled in China...

Just plastic things Simon. Warn me when Breguet watches, Jaeger Lecoultre clocks, Wilson Audio speakers, Lalique glass or Riva yachts are assembled in China.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[SteveYork]

Agreed x 2, spot on Jaap.

 

Bahhhhh! I hear a bunch of lamb.