R10 coming or not?

[jaapv]

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I assume that when Leica sponsors this "R" solution, that it would be no trouble to produce a series of dedicated lenses for it.

[luigi bertolotti]

I assume that when Leica sponsors this "R" solution, that it would be no trouble to produce a series of dedicated lenses for it.

 

... and could be a good proposal for SLR lovers... imagine such a scenario :

 

- Pana or something else (Sony - Fuji - Oly ... ?) builds a FF DSLR with R mount

- Well equipped with AF Zooms and so - Jap made and MAYBE Leica branded like the Panas P&S (but this question of branding is a delicate one in the FF DSLR world... could be better they aren't Leica branded)

- Leica provides some prestige primes, and of course there is traditional R lenses compatibility at a good level (including, of course their MF zooms)

 

If they can make some agreement in this direction I think it could enjoy a good acceptance both in the R users community and in the "open" market: in industrial terms, of course, the best thing could be to go to some manufacturer which has a FF DSLR in development, and on which there is just to make a choice/deal on the bayonet mount... the ideal candidate would be a company that usually outsources lenses to someone like Tokina, so not having the problem to "protect" a proprietary lens development dep.

[adan]

@ jacksparrow: EVIL=electronic viewfinder, interchangable lenses. Like the micro-4/3rds cameras.

 

I don't think Leica is going to revive R lens production in any form. The "solution" will be something requiring a minimal investment to allow legacy R lens owners to shoot digitally. There is nothing whatsoever in Leica's statement that commits them to a "full-frame" solution - so I expect it will be a Panny-engineered, all-electronic box that is either G1 innards in a casing more ergonomic for the larger R lenses - or MAYBE G1 technology applied to a somewhat larger sensor, probably no larger than the DMR/M8 crop, at most. Wherever the "toe" is on the size/price curve for sensors - below where they start to skyrocket.

 

MAYBE with the cams and lever to allow the aperture to stop down only for exposure, although I suspect not. It's those fiddly moving parts that add to costs.

 

Panny is their partner, Panny already has the EVIL technology. End of story.

 

It will not be a new system - it will be a bone thrown to legacy R users. "Here, you can shoot digital with your 1968 90 Elmarit or 1998 180 Summicron - now quit bugging us!"

[Riley]

that would make it APSH on a cost basis

unless you include another factor

 

If an M9 is in development, they could reduce some costs to both designs by assigning proportional R&D to both systems. Using the same development, resourcing and manufacture, with tailored firmware. There is after all a vast difference in sensor procurement costs between 10k units and 50k units. That would be where I would go.

 

in all likelihood, makes the sensor a Kodak

[miami91]

that would make it APSH on a cost basis

unless you include another factor

 

If an M9 is in development, they could reduce some costs to both designs by assigning proportional R&D to both systems. Using the same development, resourcing and manufacture, with tailored firmware. There is after all a vast difference in sensor procurement costs between 10k units and 50k units. That would be where I would go.

 

in all likelihood, makes the sensor a Kodak

 

 

Except wasn't Stefan Daniel quoted at the Hessenpark meeting (or at the pub after the meeting!) as saying that Leica won't be building the solution themselves? So I don't think it will be Leica getting economies of scale on the purchase of Kodak sensors. And Panasonic doesn't use Kodak, do they? I seem to recall the Digilux 3/L1 was a CMOS, not a CCD.

 

I think what you propose is what all of us R users wish they would have done --- develop an R10 with trickle-down S2 technology, the same way as its assumed they are doing for the M9. But it seems as if they've pulled the plug on this approach.

 

Jeff.

[andybarton]

Leica have said that they will not be making an R10.

 

Someone else (unknown) may, one day, make something that can use R lenses. Until then...

 

I don't know how many times it has to be said, but, get over it, guys and move on.

[R10dreamer]

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Leica have said that they will not be making an R10.

 

Someone else (unknown) may, one day, make something that can use R lenses. Until then...

 

I don't know how many times it has to be said, but, get over it, guys and move on.

 

 

Get over it Andy??? I have over $40,000 in R lenses and when my DMR goes in the next 2-3 years I'll have nothing to use them with digitally except adapted or rigged Canon's or Nikon's. So thanks for "getting over it". :mad:

[Rinse]

Leica have said that they will not be making an R10.

 

Someone else (unknown) may, one day, make something that can use R lenses. Until then...

 

I don't know how many times it has to be said, but, get over it, guys and move on.

 

Together with Leica saying that they will not be making a R10 also the following was said;

 

 

• There will be no digital SLR aka R10
  
• But there will be - and we are working on this - a suitable solution how to use R lenses digitally
  
• It's very important to us, that owners of R lenses can take pictures digitally in the near future
  
• There is no due date for the new solution
  
• Indirect notes by Stefan Daniel to 35 mm full format
  
• Definitely it's not going to be a SLR
  

Now there is quite a lot more to say about these statements then no R10. These statements leave a lot of room for speculation and that is what is going on here, probably until Leica will be clear about this matter.

 

By the way, there is nothing official from Leica yet about not making an R10. No press release, just silence. This afternoon I spoke to a Leica premium dealer and he was not aware of the fact that the R10 was not coming. Apparently there has been no communication on this matter by Leica to its dealers.

 

I do now believe there will be no R10, but I find this a very strange way of communicating for a professional company.

 

Also surprising was that this dealer was very well aware of the pricing and launch of the S2 in the US, but here in Europe he had heard nothing officially from Leica on the launch of the S2 yet. In fact, since last march, he had heard nothing from Leica on the S2.

 

A while ago Leica approached him with the question if he would be interested in opening a leica store here (I’m not going to name the city out of privacy reasons for the people involved - there are not that many Leica dealers and they are easily identified by location). Well in fact he would be very much interested, were it not for the fact Leica was very vague on its strategy and on the products they would be making in the future. This man backed off simply because he is not sure where Leica is heading and if there would be enough products to warrant a dedicated Leica store.

 

Sorry for the rant, but I had to get this off. To me this is just unbelievable in modern corporate life.

 

To Leica: Please shape up. You make a fantastic product, only you also have to market it. You need a strategy for this. You also need a viable strategy on where you are heading with the company and communicate it.

[R10dreamer]

Together with Leica saying that they will not be making a R10 also the following was said;

 

 

• There will be no digital SLR aka R10
  
• But there will be - and we are working on this - a suitable solution how to use R lenses digitally
  
• It's very important to us, that owners of R lenses can take pictures digitally in the near future
  
• There is no due date for the new solution
  
• Indirect notes by Stefan Daniel to 35 mm full format
  
• Definitely it's not going to be a SLR
  

Now there is quite a lot more to say about these statements then no R10. These statements leave a lot of room for speculation and that is what is going on here, probably until Leica will be clear about this matter.

 

By the way, there is nothing official from Leica yet about not making an R10. No press release, just silence. This afternoon I spoke to a Leica premium dealer and he was not aware of the fact that the R10 was not coming. Apparently there has been no communication on this matter by Leica to its dealers.

 

I do now believe there will be no R10, but I find this a very strange way of communicating for a professional company.

 

Also surprising was that this dealer was very well aware of the pricing and launch of the S2 in the US, but here in Europe he had heard nothing officially from Leica on the launch of the S2 yet. In fact, since last march, he had heard nothing from Leica on the S2.

 

A while ago Leica approached him with the question if he would be interested in opening a leica store here (I’m not going to name the city out of privacy reasons for the people involved - there are not that many Leica dealers and they are easily identified by location). Well in fact he would be very much interested, were it not for the fact Leica was very vague on its strategy and on the products they would be making in the future. This man backed off simply because he is not sure where Leica is heading and if there would be enough products to warrant a dedicated Leica store.

 

Sorry for the rant, but I had to get this off. To me this is just unbelievable in modern corporate life.

 

To Leica: Please shape up. You make a fantastic product, only you also have to market it. You need a strategy for this. You also need a viable strategy on where you are heading with the company and communicate it.

 

I absolutely agree with this.

[J Mitchum]

Together with Leica saying that they will not be making a R10 also the following was said;

 

 

• There will be no digital SLR aka R10
  
• But there will be - and we are working on this - a suitable solution how to use R lenses digitally
  
• It's very important to us, that owners of R lenses can take pictures digitally in the near future
  
• There is no due date for the new solution
  
• Indirect notes by Stefan Daniel to 35 mm full format
  
• Definitely it's not going to be a SLR
  

Now there is quite a lot more to say about these statements then no R10. These statements leave a lot of room for speculation and that is what is going on here, probably until Leica will be clear about this matter.

 

 

It sounds like it will be a lens adaptor of some sort. Nothing to suggest an "EVIL" camera or what have you. I really think dropping R10 development while pushing forward with the S2 is the biggest mistake they have ever made.

[adan]

Let me throw out a constructive idea (since I've been pretty negative on the concept of Leica ever getting back into making 35mm-derived SLRs - film, digital, AF, manual, whatever) that I've been kicking around for a while.

 

Leica R lenses have joined the club of orphaned SLR lenses: Canon FD, Kyocera/Contax, Minolta MD (Heck: Petri, Miranda, Topcon, if you want 'em) - and semi-orphaned lenses (Olympus OM, Pentax SM/K (if you want full-frame) - even a few Nikkors that require full-time mirror-up (deep fisheyes or the F-mount version of the Cosina 15mm).

 

None of those lines are large enough by themselves to support a third-party digital solution - too many differences among the mounts, especially if you count the levers and stuff needed for full-aperture metering and auto-stop-down for exposure. Too little commonality from the shutter forward for cost-effectiveness.

 

Now - suppose one could build a basic digital box along the lines of an overgrown Panny G1. Sensor (ideally 24 x 36), EVF, no mirror, no levers, but also not much deeper front to back than a G1. And with a generic mount on the front with its own set of gold electrical pin contacts.

 

This leaves room for a set of tube adapters, each about 1" deep. On the back they mate to the generic mount on the box - on the front each mates to a particular orphaned lens line. Inside is a silent-wave motor that drives a stop-down lever mechanism specific to the front lens mount: a flipper to hit the pin on Pentax SM lenses, or an arm at the bottom for Canon FD, or a lever on the side for R lenses. Etc. for Minolta, Contax and so on.

 

Inside is also an appropriate lever attached to a slide-type rheostat for reading the aperture ring setting, and a third contact to read the max. aperture of the lens, by whatever means the original camera maker chose (Pin for Canon FD/BL, cam for Leica R (I guess) etc.) The lens moves the rheostat mechanically - the rheostat sends an electronic translation to the camera.

 

I.E. the adapters are fully functional mounts, that will read the old mechanical "information" devices and transmit that via contacts, and will drive the stop-down mechanics via the silent-wave or solenoid motor.

 

All the mechanical stuff is in the adapter - the body's input is purely electrical. So you could build 100,000 identical bodies (for economy of scale) and just choose the adapter needed to fit your line of lenses. One adapter per camera (unless you want to use multiple lens lines) - no need to adapt each lens.

 

The adapters would be pricier than a simple machined mount-to-mount adapter - but the bodies would be vastly less expensive to build than separate ones with all the right pins and levers for a single lens line. In fact, probably less expensive than current FF SLRs, since there is no expense for a mirror mechanism. Really no reason why the CAMERA should cost much more than a G1, except for the extra cost of the bigger sensor, and a tiny amount for extra materials to make the overall size larger.

 

Any investors (or as Christian Baha says, "Inwestors") out there?

[Riley]

exactly

and lens suite given each has its own adapter, you can add focus confirmation to that

[adan]

It sounds like it will be a lens adaptor of some sort.

 

Adapting the lenses to what? Not an S2 (too long a backfocus on the S2 body). I suspect a straight 4/3rds camera adapter (2x crop) would not be acceptable.

 

Nothing to suggest an "EVIL" camera or what have you.

 

"Definitely it's not going to be a SLR" If not an EVIL or an SLR - what other options are there? I believe the idea of an EVF solution was mentioned in a side conversation between Stefan Daniels and someone at the meeting in May.

 

I really think dropping R10 development while pushing forward with the S2 is the biggest mistake they have ever made.

 

Time will tell. I watch with interest...

[andybarton]

Sorry if I sounded abut brutal above, but sooner or later, one has to accept that the R line is no more. The writing's been on the wall for years. Ever since they stopped making R bodies

 

I have more cash in R stuff than M stuff, this affects me too, don't forget. I have moved my R lenses on to Nikon, now that I know there's no R10 coming, and im very pleased with the results.

[giordano]

A little bird* tells me that the R-solution is a full-frame M10 with live view and electric contacts on the body to mate with an adapter like the ones adan describes.

 

 

* Fringilla coelebs

[luigi bertolotti]

A little bird* tells me that the R-solution is a full-frame M10 with live view and electric contacts on the body to mate with an adapter like the ones adan describes.

 

 

* Fringilla coelebs

... R users would HATE to use live view, I think...

[bephoto]

my guess is Panasonic's "DMW-MA3RE - LEICA R Mount Adaptor" is just a test for panasonic marketing unit to see howmany R users go for their G1 and GH1 cameras for the sake of digital R solution. Leica can sell R patents to a second company if they dont have the marketing guts to produce R10. i think if ppl at Panasonic see a potential market (testing it by Leica R - G1 adapter) they will have the nerve to go for R mount in future. but for now 5dMKII is the best solution for R lenses I tried 80 1.4 and 28 2.8 on 5dmkii and the results are great.

[Riley]

not all Leica R will fit a 5D/5DII

 

15mm f3.5 Elmarit

15mm f2.8 Super-Elmarit

19mm f2.8

24mm f2.8

28mm f2.8

21-35mm

all require the mirror to be shaved.

 

So you need to consider this, if you dont need WA R lens support a 5D chassis would be fine, but then you may as well be interested in APS bodies too, b/se on APS all lenses will fit, and non will really be WA.

[rayoflight]

I have got a question for some time now: if you mount an R lens on a Canon / Nikon body, does the metering work as well? And how? Otherwise, there's not much sense doing so in real world photography... Guessing and trial/error situation.

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[Riley]

I have got a question for some time now: if you mount an R lens on a Canon / Nikon body, does the metering work as well? And how? Otherwise, there's not much sense doing so in real world photography... Guessing and trial/error situation.

 

inevitably fast glass reports very different e/v for the camera, and metering is out.

As you stop down the metering becomes more accurate. You can buy adapters intended for adapting the lens to a body like 5D, and providing focus confirmation.

 

The best of them, containing programmable ROM, and approaching US$100 per, will adjust e/v as well.