earleygallery Posted November 13, 2006 Share #1 Posted November 13, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) I'm very confused over the threads regarding the M8. We read thread after thread about the colour rendition of one version of a lens versus the other, as well as bokeh and the like. Threads about colour profiling of printers, calibration of monitors and arguments over inks and papers. People bang on about the resolution of different lenses and ultimate image quality, how it is almost a crime to stick a filter in front of a Leica lens. Then I find myself reading posts from people who have said 'what does it matter if some blacks turn out purple, especially in street photography, how would anyone know what colour coat someone was wearing anyway' , people who are perfectly happy to now stick filters on their lenses to get useable images or make photoshop adjustments even if it means that not all the colours are really that accurate, people who are willing to accept blotches and banding on images 'it's hardly noticeable' and most of all people who are happy to hand over a wad of cash to buy a product they know to be faulty where it counts most - image quality. I just find all this talk so very much at odds with the hitherto typical attitude of the Leica photographer - one of perfection in everything. OK we accept that Leica will shortly do a recall and put matters right, but the next question if I was buying a new M8 would be am I getting a 'new' camera or a 'refurbished' camera. For the money I'd want 100% new. That's partly why I think Leica should have issued an immediate recall rather than allowing sales to continue. The display of loyalty for the Leica name is quite outstanding and the CEO should be showing this stuff to the shareholders and business partners of Leica. Its a very rare thing today. I'm being serious here - it wasn't that long ago that the banks and financiers were taking a dim view of the business. I argued with people that Leica wasn't just any other brand, that their history and enormous loyalty amongst customers was a factor which shouldn't be ignored and would see them through. Let's be honest, this product launch is about as bad as it can get. Numerous faults which should have been addressed before any cameras were released for sale. The fact that Leica knew about these issues pre release really is unacceptable. It clearly isn't just a handful of 'pre production' units (how come they ended up for sale anyway if that was the case). The M8 is a very very important camera for Leica we all know that. It needs to attract new buyers to Leica too. I'm not quite sure a newcomer to the brand would understand the need for mandatory filters though and not sure that they'd accept it. For all the loyalty and desire of the early adopters to get the thing to work for them, Leica need the M8 to be a 100% product if it's going to fulfil their needs in terms of generating revenue. In the long run it may not actually be helping matters by persevering with bodge fixes - if the wider photographic community think that is what owning an M8 is about it can only serve to harm the reputation further, although part of me understands the desire to hang onto the camera and the fun of experimenting with it. I've been using Leica for over 20 years, I'd also count myself as a loyal customer if not quite as loyal as some of you, and I really hope they resolve the quality issues very very soon. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 13, 2006 Posted November 13, 2006 Hi earleygallery, Take a look here Misc. ramblings . I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
marknorton Posted November 13, 2006 Share #2 Posted November 13, 2006 James, thank you for that. This has to be one of the best, most considered posts ever to appear here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted November 14, 2006 Share #3 Posted November 14, 2006 Agree James but actually what's the choice of people dreaming to get a digital body for their dear Leica lenses? A couple of refurbished R-D1(s) with no serious support from Epson/Cosina or a couple thousands M8 with support from Leica and additional IR filters? Also what would Leicaphiles prefer, a sharp M8 with external IR filters or a softer one with internal IR filter? Not quite sure what i'd do if i were on this market right now... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted November 14, 2006 Share #4 Posted November 14, 2006 Leica really needs to get a handle on the situation ... to those who don't understand Japanese, the title in bold characters besides the pictures I scanned from the November issue of Asahi Camera actually reads: This is the performance of the Leica M8! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob_x2004 Posted November 14, 2006 Share #5 Posted November 14, 2006 CEO should be showing this stuff to the shareholders and business partners of Leica. Yes they made a commercial decision to release the camera. They will be judged at the end of the fin year or quarter. Musings of enthusiasts don't count, whether we like it or not. Every M8 in my part of the world is pre sold, from one shop alone another ten hit the streets tomorrow as they are unshipped from Melbourne, and, lets face it, I live in the antipodes, so I think we can safely rule out any recall fixes, generally. Either accept that this generation of camera is good enough, with firmware upgrades and filters, or, that the cancer has spread. Financial year, fait accompli, everything else will fade a distant memory. By the way, all the lenses still with Leica importer / distributer have been boxed up and are being returned to Germany for their stripes. You cannot buy a new 35Lux Asper in Australia, it will take three weeks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stnami Posted November 14, 2006 Share #6 Posted November 14, 2006 The first shots of purple Tasmanian devils are out so it looks like the M8 is the final product as it has penetrated the fringes of the world. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyper67 Posted November 14, 2006 Share #7 Posted November 14, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) Don't want to create a panic and I really should do some creative work rather than speculate about the outcome of my favorite soap like a desperate houswife but there is a credible scary thought that seems to have popped up in my head as I read all this: What if the reason they released the camera with its known problems is that it is the best they can do at least for the forseable future.What if they know they can't fix the problems with their given knowledge base? Later firmware will fix some banding/WB problems but magenta probably only thru filters. What if they knew it then and they know it now.... I promised myself I would not read this forum for a week because all this ranting is creating a very negative mood, however for the people that have posted some images all I can say is WOW!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted November 14, 2006 Share #8 Posted November 14, 2006 What an excellent summation of the situation - and exactly how i feel about both the launch, and the amazingly forgiving attitude of Leica loyalists. There was even a thread over the weekend where 'Leicists' were telling people to "stop pixel-peeping" the M8 images! I had to pick myself off the floor after i read that particular comment. Anyway - let's hope that owning an M8 doesn't become a niche-of-a-niche endeavour - forever fixing and filtering and patching just to match the normal output of other pro cameras. Strangely, i'm STILL looking forward to getting mine - though i'm willing to actually wait for it to be the near-perfect unit i expected in the first place. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
strick Posted November 14, 2006 Share #9 Posted November 14, 2006 James, thank you for that. This has to be one of the best, most considered posts ever to appear here. Indeed! Greg Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted November 14, 2006 Share #10 Posted November 14, 2006 In the long run it may not actually be helping matters by persevering with bodge fixes - if the wider photographic community think that is what owning an M8 is about it can only serve to harm the reputation further, although part of me understands the desire to hang onto the camera and the fun of experimenting with it. Unlike a lot of those who have talked and speculated about the 'issues' I actually own and use an M8. I was initially taken aback by the IR/Magenta problem and found Leica USA's response to the matter deeply insulting. However, since then I have used the camera a great deal more and am simply astonished at how good the image files are from a combination of M8 and M lenses. If Leica's engineers were only able to achieve this level of basic quality through the use of the particular sensor glass/filter that they chose, I am happy to accept the need to use external filters - it simply isn't a big deal in the wider scheme of things. For me, a bodge fix is if Leica alter the specifications of their preferred sensor glass to a less optimum one so that it satisfies the requirement of being able to shoot without a filter. Leica's biggest problem for me is that if their engineers long ago determined that optimum image quality was best achieved by a thin IR sensor cover and the use of external filters, this information should have been communicated right at the outset of the M8's launch. It is true that this would have attracted negative comment and made Leica look slightly foolish within the wider mass market but I don't believe that it would have made a huge difference to M8 sales (would anyone prefer compromised image quality just so they can avoid using a lens filter?) and the degree of public derision would have been infinitely less than they are currently now having to endure. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexr Posted November 14, 2006 Share #11 Posted November 14, 2006 Don't want to create a panic and I really should do some creative work rather than speculate about the outcome of my favorite soap like a desperate houswife but there is a credible scary thought that seems to have popped up in my head as I read all this: What if the reason they released the camera with its known problems is that it is the best they can do at least for the forseable future.What if they know they can't fix the problems with their given knowledge base? Later firmware will fix some banding/WB problems but magenta probably only thru filters. What if they knew it then and they know it now.... I am afraid i have that fear too. Maybe i am just a worrier, can't help it. It is curious, though, that Epson could put out a digital m without such extreme IR problems. Not exactly the most famed camera maker, Epson. If they can do it, why can't Leica? We keep hearing that the m8 project is state-of-the-art innovation. But it is not, really. Epson were the innovators. i-d have thought Leica could have learned heaps from the Rd-1. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
j. borger Posted November 14, 2006 Share #12 Posted November 14, 2006 Was not the weak IR filter a deliberate design decision instead of a bug??? A trade-off to get the filequality they are getting otherwise? I am sure the reactions to the IR consequences and the filter-solution would have been a lot milder if: - the canned M8 C1 colorprofile was better - awb was better - the banding issue was not there In short. If the firmware and software shipped with the M8 had done their job as it will in a couple of weeks, the IR issue and cures (filters) had probably been far less of a problem and more of a compromise. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted November 14, 2006 Share #13 Posted November 14, 2006 as it will in a couple of weeks... Can i quote you again on this... in a couple of weeks' time? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
j. borger Posted November 14, 2006 Share #14 Posted November 14, 2006 Can i quote you again on this... in a couple of weeks' time? .....or months .... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
osera Posted November 14, 2006 Share #15 Posted November 14, 2006 What an excellent summation of the situation - and exactly how i feel about both the launch, and the amazingly forgiving attitude of Leica loyalists. .... I'm not sure what this means, exactly. What is the proper attitude to take here? I have Leica M film cameras, and a prior collection of nice lenses. I also have the M8 that I pre-ordered. I'm troubled by the problems, I have seen them in my own images, and also seen really great technical image quality, too. So what's the proper attitude? Is it "give me my money back now!"? My dealer said he would. Is it "Let's wait and see what happens in the short term, then decide."? Well, that seems to be to be what the vast majority of internet commenters have said. Should it be: "Hire a lawyer, sue them for everything."? Probably too soon, and I'm not a big fan of law suits anyway. Should it be: "lets march on Leica headquarters and demand that they come out and humiliate themselves in public."? Not my style. So I have responded by 1) confirming with dealer that I can return camera now or very soon, depending on response, 2) staying informed about Leica's comments, 3) evaluating reviews and comments by people who know more than I, 4) evaluating camera for myself, including reproducing problems and evaluating other aspects of camera for the way I shoot. I'm not prepared at this time to sue anybody or march in the streets. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stnami Posted November 14, 2006 Share #16 Posted November 14, 2006 atleast Leica knows how to hold a good poker face Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M'Ate Posted November 14, 2006 Share #17 Posted November 14, 2006 atleast Leica knows how to hold a good poker face and the Dealers too. Presume that there is a limit to the time an M8 can be returned as a matter of choice. 28 days in some parts of the world. Obviously, the M8 is faulty, but if known about at the ttime the 28 days expires, the right to a refund expires and repair becomes a warranty issue. If the fix is delayed, the repair is delayed, but does the right to a refund every return ? I don't know, but safest is to presume not because that right was given up by the purchaser. So the dealers need that poker face. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brucek Posted November 14, 2006 Share #18 Posted November 14, 2006 It is curious, though, that Epson could put out a digital m without such extreme IR problems. Big difference between the two cameras. At the very least note the difference in crop factors: 1.5 (Epson) vs. 1.33 (M8). Then there's the distinct lack of vignetting even with the same lenses and smaller crop factor. I'd be willing to bet that the above are the prime reasons for the enhanced IR sensitivity. Bruce Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted November 14, 2006 Share #19 Posted November 14, 2006 I'm not sure what this means, exactly. What is the proper attitude to take here? I don't have any idea either - i'm number 2 on my local waiting-list, and i'm nervous that the call is gonna come that my camera is here. But i'm also nervous that the call is NEVER going to come... I'm nervous that if i take the camera PRE-fix, that Leica won't actually come through with a good solution. I'm nervous that if i wait POST-fix, that some of the image-quality may have been sacrificed. I'm nervous that Leica loyalists will let the company 'off the hook'. I'm nervous that without the loyalists, the company will disappear... You get the picture... i'm nervous. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob_x2004 Posted November 14, 2006 Share #20 Posted November 14, 2006 Hey mani, I havent seen you posting anything for a while over at photo. You still got the DLux2? Hows it travelling? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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