wildlightphoto Posted July 2, 2009 Share #101 Posted July 2, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) I can continue with film - at least until Kodak and Fuji give up on that also - have the images scanned at a higher resolution that any digital sensor Leica was likely to use ... I compared the DMR at ISO 400 with Kodachrome 25, both with the 280mm f/4 APO, and for making prints it was no contest: the DMR prints provided more detail, better color quality and more dynamic range with a smaller file. K25's advantages are passive archiving and projection, except that projection shortens its life. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 Hi wildlightphoto, Take a look here Death of the R - How do you really feel?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
AlanG Posted July 2, 2009 Share #102 Posted July 2, 2009 In that case, why not just shoot video and extract the images you want?Are we still talking about still photography here? I think the two technologies are merging. You could shoot video and extract the frames if that works for you. But I'm talking about a much higher resolution than 1080P video that would probably have to be shot in short bursts as there would be processing limitations at first that would preclude long takes. Likewise, "sweep panorama" employs similar technology for automatic stitching. High speed buffered shooting will simply be another "mode" in some future cameras that are targeted primarily to sports shooters at first. The "advance" of electronic features will be relentless, need them or not as the manufacturers have to keep making new stuff. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicaman94044 Posted July 2, 2009 Share #103 Posted July 2, 2009 Doug, Was your image taken on KM 25 shot with the 280 APO? Just curious as that lens is so exceptional when compared with the Telyt's that such a test would not be conclusive if the film weren't taken with the same lens and drum scanned. I haven't done such a test directly comparing KM25 shot with my big APO glass to a DMR file at 100, let alone 400... but I have found that I can enlarge KM25 and KR 64 that is exposed at optimum aperture/ tripod/MLU significantly larger than my DMR files (DMR files exposed at 100 iso). DMR color, of course, is more accurate, but where extreme enlargements are the goal Kodachrome is the ticket. I was hoping the R10 would leapfrog the DMR so I could bury my fridge full of KR 64 and 200... but that isn't going to happen. Lawrence Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted July 2, 2009 Share #104 Posted July 2, 2009 Doug,Was your image taken on KM 25 shot with the 280 APO? Yup. No MLU though,for either the K25 or DMR exposures. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicaman94044 Posted July 2, 2009 Share #105 Posted July 2, 2009 Fair enough, Doug. Thanks for the comment. How are you processing your dng files? I've been using Aperture and am wondering if the Flextight software is any better with 400 iso shots? Lawrence Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted July 2, 2009 Share #106 Posted July 2, 2009 Fair enough, Doug. Thanks for the comment. How are you processing your dng files? I've been using Aperture and am wondering if the Flextight software is any better with 400 iso shots? Lawrence I've been using ISO 400 and FlexColor almost always. I'll get noise in the darker tones if I've under-exposed to save highlights otherwise I'm very happy with FlexColor's output. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick_dykstra Posted July 9, 2009 Share #107 Posted July 9, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Back to the original question - how do you really feel. Mighty p*ssed off, to be perfectly frank. It would not have been a difficult thing for Leica to produce an R10 - particularly if nothing more than an R9 with a full frame sensor. That would have suited me (and many others I think) perfectly. But, given the lively trade in durable second hand R lenses that remain more than competitive optically it would not have stimulated enough new R lens sales. And given the outstanding performance, it would have detracted from the S2. I believe a factor in Leica's decision to kill the R system was to give the new S2 a clearer space. I'll start a thread to count up how many here would have bought an R10 in the shape of an R9 with a full frame sensor. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppyman Posted July 9, 2009 Share #108 Posted July 9, 2009 Rick I can understand the disappointment of the R faithful, of course. For your thread survey, you might like to include a caveat that Leica calculated that the R10 body would have had to sell for 6000-7000 Euro (from Stefan Daniel's address ). Clearly they could not compete directly against Canon and Nikon there. Stefan said that the likely customers would be those with existing large investments in R lenses. Just not enough for the camera to make economic sense for them in the current climate. Back to the original question - how do you really feel. Mighty p*ssed off, to be perfectly frank. It would not have been a difficult thing for Leica to produce an R10 - particularly if nothing more than an R9 with a full frame sensor. That would have suited me (and many others I think) perfectly. But, given the lively trade in durable second hand R lenses that remain more than competitive optically it would not have stimulated enough new R lens sales. And given the outstanding performance, it would have detracted from the S2. I believe a factor in Leica's decision to kill the R system was to give the new S2 a clearer space. I'll start a thread to count up how many here would have bought an R10 in the shape of an R9 with a full frame sensor. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick_dykstra Posted July 10, 2009 Share #109 Posted July 10, 2009 Hi Hoppy. Yeah I saw that 6 to 7 thousand Euro thing. That's a bit steep. What I'm thinking of is a camera no more complicated than an R9 with a full frame sensor. That is, no new development work needed beyond what has already been done for R9/DMR, other than enlarging the 'film' gate and perhaps some revised chips to handle more data. If needed. I'd like to think this should not cost 7000 Euro. I'll be talking today with some friends who do research in high end surveillance systems. I watched them build and test camera & image data management systems last year. I'll find out how easy it will be to build my own R10. Might not be pretty. Might even be tethered to a laptop. Could be quite a project. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppyman Posted July 10, 2009 Share #110 Posted July 10, 2009 Rick I think you just invented the DMR! But when they were in production Leica says that they only sold one tenth of the quantities of the M8 (then). If it had sold in similar quantities to the M8, they would have been able to afford to order another run of sensors to build more with. Naturally the breakown of the Imacon/ Leica marriage since makes all of that coulda/woulda/shoulda. On serial production (ignoring development costs etc etc) The factory people told my group that they are moving to just in time production to reduce costs, however components have to be ordered and paid for two years in advance. You need to find about 10,000 customers for production of your lusted after R10 to be worthwhile OK we know that Doug would buy one even if he had to mortgage his house and sell his family for medical experiments, and you and apparently Jaap. You just need about 9,997 true believers! Hi Hoppy. Yeah I saw that 6 to 7 thousand Euro thing. That's a bit steep. What I'm thinking of is a camera no more complicated than an R9 with a full frame sensor. That is, no new development work needed beyond what has already been done for R9/DMR, other than enlarging the 'film' gate and perhaps some revised chips to handle more data. If needed. I'd like to think this should not cost 7000 Euro. I'll be talking today with some friends who do research in high end surveillance systems. I watched them build and test camera & image data management systems last year. I'll find out how easy it will be to build my own R10. Might not be pretty. Might even be tethered to a laptop. Could be quite a project. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
harrisfoto Posted July 10, 2009 Share #111 Posted July 10, 2009 All we need is a new digital M, with focus confirmation, (green light when the area in the cross-hairs is in focus.) Then we can use all M lenses, R lenses with an adapter, and almost all other legacy manual focus slr lenses as well. Please with full frame sensor. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyp Posted July 10, 2009 Share #112 Posted July 10, 2009 Felt disappointed, been using Rs or SLs for 28 years. I've never bought much new stuff, but Leica has probably made a little money off of me for repairs and CLAs and such. Hopefully, Kindermann and others will keep doing their magic on our used equipment for a while. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgcd Posted July 10, 2009 Share #113 Posted July 10, 2009 All we need is a new digital M, with focus confirmation, (green light when the area in the cross-hairs is in focus.) Then we can use all M lenses, R lenses with an adapter, and almost all other legacy manual focus slr lenses as well. Please with full frame sensor. No thanks. Just a real R10 would have sufficed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted July 10, 2009 Share #114 Posted July 10, 2009 Rick I think you just invented the DMR! But when they were in production Leica says that they only sold one tenth of the quantities of the M8 (then). If it had sold in similar quantities to the M8, they would have been able to afford to order another run of sensors to build more with. Naturally the breakown of the Imacon/ Leica marriage since makes all of that coulda/woulda/shoulda. On serial production (ignoring development costs etc etc) The factory people told my group that they are moving to just in time production to reduce costs, however components have to be ordered and paid for two years in advance. You need to find about 10,000 customers for production of your lusted after R10 to be worthwhile OK we know that Doug would buy one even if he had to mortgage his house and sell his family for medical experiments, and you and apparently Jaap. You just need about 9,997 true believers! This is a first for any company I know of...Leica have moved apparently to "Just in Time (JIT) "delivery, to reduce costs ....but Leica agree to pay two years in advance ?? My view is that Leica should scrap the JIT idea and go back to JUST IN CASE, and pay for components within 30 days or longer after delivery Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppyman Posted July 10, 2009 Share #115 Posted July 10, 2009 Frank as I understand it, payment in advance for components is normal for manufacturers like this. Leica is not a giant company like Sony or similar who probably have different credit arrangements . I'm sure that Leica and any other manufacturer in today's climate would be happy to be given 30 days credit after delivery. Just pop 2 million Euro on your Mastercard and pay for it next month The move to Just In Time manufacture by Leica is being implemented after business consultants from Porsche have been employed to improve Leica's efficiency and profitability. Out of interest I saw a rather large pile of boxes of pressed blank elements from one of Leica's glass suppliers at the factory. More than enough for a couple of days production! This is a first for any company I know of...Leica have moved apparently to "Just in Time (JIT) "delivery, to reduce costs ....but Leica agree to pay two years in advance ??My view is that Leica should scrap the JIT idea and go back to JUST IN CASE, and pay for components within 30 days or longer after delivery Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevelap Posted July 11, 2009 Author Share #116 Posted July 11, 2009 It's been a while now since the news broke so, have your views changed? Are you more or less angry, frustrated and disappointed, or more or less inclined to give Leica a second chance with its future 'digital solution for R lenses'? Has anyone moved from negative thoughts to positive, or vice versa? Or perhaps resignation has set in and you've decided to move on, dslr wise. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted July 11, 2009 Share #117 Posted July 11, 2009 I keep my R lenses for the 5D and possibly the next 5D3 unless the Leica 'solution' is more serious than a Panny APS EVIL. But i've just bought an Oly 21/2 instead of the Elmarit 19/2.8 i planned to acquire for the R10, so the wheel is turning fortunately. Zeiss 50/2 and 28/2 lenses could well come later but i won't be buying anything else Leica if it is not full frame anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted July 11, 2009 Share #118 Posted July 11, 2009 I'll keep using the equipment I have either until it can no longer be repaired or the file format is hopelessly outdated, whichever comes first. At that time I'll re-evaluate the offerings on the market and move on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted July 11, 2009 Share #119 Posted July 11, 2009 It's been a while now since the news broke so, have your views changed? Are you more or less angry, frustrated and disappointed, or more or less inclined to give Leica a second chance with its future 'digital solution for R lenses'?Has anyone moved from negative thoughts to positive, or vice versa? Or perhaps resignation has set in and you've decided to move on, dslr wise. I was thinking about buying a "R" system before the announcement. I thought about it again recently urged on by the up to 70% discounts at SH Photo for Leica "R" stock...where I thought in terms of a Canon DSLR back...however that I see as dangerously locking me into an obsolete lens system that will see no new lenses in future years. My view is that Leica will at some point introduce a "S" junior DSLR or will "Just" survive only as a very focussed niche company with high price products. I am very frustrated as I wanted to buy "R" equipment....if I had already owned "R" lenses I guess I would be xxxxxxx angry. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted July 11, 2009 Share #120 Posted July 11, 2009 Frank as I understand it, payment in advance for components is normal for manufacturers like this. Leica is not a giant company like Sony or similar who probably have different credit arrangements . I'm sure that Leica and any other manufacturer in today's climate would be happy to be given 30 days credit after delivery. Just pop 2 million Euro on your Mastercard and pay for it next month The move to Just In Time manufacture by Leica is being implemented after business consultants from Porsche have been employed to improve Leica's efficiency and profitability. Out of interest I saw a rather large pile of boxes of pressed blank elements from one of Leica's glass suppliers at the factory. More than enough for a couple of days production! The issue is not company size it is the credit rating that Leica has. In my view the Leica bankers will be wanting to see evidence of: 1 Recent business performance since they had the credit issues some years ago that caused Hermes to sell, and the company was split up. 2 A clear believable strategy that suggests that Leica will enjoy a brilliant future, and be able to repay any credits given. 3 Evidence that the executive team is driving the company forward as per the plan . Frankly this thread and others show how difficult it will be in my view to woo the bankers as there is so many issues surrounding Leica's plan at both a product and commercial level. "Just in time delivery" or "ship to line" is superb for volume production of something that has high cost components in it, and where fast assembly is the order of the day. How that fits with handcrafted assembly in small batches I would have thought was less obvious. If they are receiving huge quantities of lens blanks all at one time then hopefully they have a strategy to sell these as finished product very quickly........or the cost of component inventory, plus WIP and finished goods inventory must be a real issue. Add to that the concept that they also need to pay in advance suggests to me at least that at a business level they have issues to address....unless the component cost to make a lens is say £20 for a lens that sells to a dealer when finished at £2000, which Idoubt. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.