stevelap Posted June 19, 2009 Author Share #41 Posted June 19, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Yes, a sounding-out exercise was certainly a big part of Leica's intent. One of the reasons I wanted to start this thread:). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 19, 2009 Posted June 19, 2009 Hi stevelap, Take a look here Death of the R - How do you really feel?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jlancasterd Posted June 19, 2009 Share #42 Posted June 19, 2009 I must say that I'm feeling gutted. I bought a DMR within the first year of its introduction as it seemed to indicate that Leica was committed to a manual-focus R system in the long term, and I've been eagerly awaiting the R10 so as to be able to use my wide angle R lenses - specifically the outstanding 21-35 zoom - on full frame. I had a Digilux-2 as an earlier stop-gap, but really disliked the electronic viewfinder and wasn't too keen on the autofocus either. I would therefore be very wary of buying the 'solution' for R lens users if it involves an electronic viewfinder. I'm also worried about the time frame for the introduction of the R-solution and am therefore seriously considering if I should unload my R8, DMR and set of R lenses whilst they still have some residual value. Although I also have an M8 with a reasonably full set of lenses, I am used to having an SLR outfit and would probably buy a Canon EOS 5Ds MarkII outfit to replace the R - and grit my teeth at being forced to use a system biased towards autofocus. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jung Posted June 19, 2009 Share #43 Posted June 19, 2009 I feel fine. As a big fan of the analog thing there will probably be some great second hand offers for me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrid Posted June 19, 2009 Share #44 Posted June 19, 2009 I did. For that kind of thing we'll have the M9 argh.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppyman Posted June 20, 2009 Share #45 Posted June 20, 2009 Manfred, Leica is not immune to the global financial mess and has finite resources. I don't imagine anyone foresaw that situation when planning ahead of the last Photokina where the R10 possibility was announced either. Herr Daniel said that Leica regard the in-house control of the S2 system design as very important for future cameras too. No R10 does not mean that there will be no use of the sensor, processor, AF and other technology from the S2 system for future Leica products. The best information on just why the R10 was cancelled is quoted in the summary by our very hard working Andreas in the customer forum. Similarly the "adequate" solution for R lenses on a digital body will not be ready by next Photokina and is NOT necessarily a new camera anyway. The EVF camera information posted by Jaap was not public to the rest of us at the meeting. We'll have to see what that turns out to be. Herr Daniel only said to the meeting that current four thirds sensors were not good enough and in any case Leica regards the G1 EVF as the lowest acceptable quality too. Disappointed, frustrated and really, really angry this time. I'm never going to believe anything anyone at Leica says anymore. After all that b*****t about scaling down the S2 and all that. And no EVF for me, thanks. One day it's the super technology of an S2 to be used in a coming R10 the size of an R7, and the next day it's an EVF "solution" of a different manufacturer. Who do they think the users of R-glass are? Complete idiots? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicapages Posted June 20, 2009 Share #46 Posted June 20, 2009 I hate to say this as I have always been an avid Leica R user, but I have never really believed that we would see a digital Leica R body compatible, and without limitations, with the Leica R lenses. The R system will go down in history as the best available manual SLR system ever, and will remain like that for many years to come. I am fully satisfied with the film-based R9. But with the advent of the S2 it was obvious that the days of the R were over. Leica is taking a gamble here. Existing R lenses will not work on the S2 without limitations, and demanding existing R users to "upgrade" (i.e. selling off all their R inventory and invest again in the S2 body+lenses) is going to prove difficult. I am not really a believer in the S2 system. By the time it will become available others have established themselves in the high-end marketplace and moved on, e.g. Hasselblad with higher-specced digital bodies. I hope I am wrong, but... Meanwhile, the faithful bunch of Leica R users are being abandoned. Sad, but that is the reality of it. Pascal Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted June 20, 2009 Share #47 Posted June 20, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Disappointed, resigned, and furious with the idiots who caused the global financial meltdown. I wish the best for Leica's management and employees, the company is hostage to the economic climate. For myself, the sensuous beauty of the DMR's image files especially when made with Leica APO lenses would haunt me if the camera were not available for any reason... so much so that I'm looking for a backup DMR, creative financing a plus Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted June 20, 2009 Share #48 Posted June 20, 2009 I think this highlights the danger of talking about product futures - people remember what's said, think it's cast in stone and forget things can change in the meantime. Maike Harberts certainly created the impression at Photokina of an R camera derived from the S-2, there was even an empty space in the Leica display hinting at the target form factor. The writing was on the wall when the R system was discontinued just weeks after the new CEO arrived. Maybe it was he who looked at the numbers and decided the business case - with everything else Leica is trying to do - simply didn't stack up. It's likely that Leica just cannot afford the, say, €20m (my guess, substitute your own) needed to bring a camera to market with a range of accessories and AF lenses and wisely decided to cancel the project in the interests of their long term survival. Disappointed as R users may be, we'd be all the more aggrieved if Leica over-stretched themselves, returned to the dark days of 2005 and actually went bust, only to be sold for a song to Panasonic who might then prostitute the brand by red-dotting everything in sight. There's a similar situation with Porsche who have over-stretched themselves trying to punch above their weight and now risk becoming just another brand under the Volkswagen umbrella. As a Porsche enthusiast, I'm interested in seeing Porsche retain their independence. Our interests are best served by an independent Leica and I think spending huge sums on an R replacement would have put that independence at risk. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted June 20, 2009 Share #49 Posted June 20, 2009 Dammit, Mark, stop saying things I agree with! Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted June 20, 2009 Share #50 Posted June 20, 2009 LOL, Frank's had one good effect then... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveYork Posted June 20, 2009 Share #51 Posted June 20, 2009 I have been close to putting my DMR up for sale on several occasions over the past couple of months. The only reason I have not is that I find it hard to part with it. The results are still phenomenal. Keep using it until it breaks. Then switch over to something else. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveYork Posted June 20, 2009 Share #52 Posted June 20, 2009 If the dismal sale numbers led to Leica's decision -- and my understanding is that Leica R sales were pathetic -- but then you get to that 'chicken and egg' thing. Why were they pathetic? Were they pathetic because they didn't have a DSLR (except for that half-breed DMR) or were they pathetic because the R system just couldn't compete with the likes of Nikon and Canon. I've heard many times over the last decade of R users reluctantly jumping ship, because Leica didn't have a DSLR. Although we'll never know, I suspect Leica would've reclaimed some of its' lost market share if it came out with a DSLR (even a rebadged one like the R3). All those folks who owned R lenses, or used R lenses in the past, would've been potential customers. My feeling is that there were a lot of people just looking for a reason to get back into the R system (former users now w/ Nikon or Canon) but Leica never game them that reason. Just my speculation. My take is that Leica waited too long, and found themselves just too far behind when they were ready to act. The DMR was very creative, and takes great pictures, but I never viewed as very practical. It kept current R9 users happy, but I don't think it was something to lure someone into or back into the R system. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveYork Posted June 20, 2009 Share #53 Posted June 20, 2009 I doubt you'll ever see a digital solution for R users, other then what you already have. I'll have to see it before I believe it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted June 20, 2009 Share #54 Posted June 20, 2009 LOL, Frank's had one good effect then... ...Just the one! Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
topoxforddoc Posted June 20, 2009 Share #55 Posted June 20, 2009 Shame, but hardly surprising. I'd have bought a R10 (or maybe 2), but my 2 DMRs will have to suffice. Hopefully they'll go on for a bit. Still at least I might find a 80 lux at a reasonable price now! Charlie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgcd Posted June 20, 2009 Share #56 Posted June 20, 2009 Keep using it until it breaks. Then switch over to something else. That indeed looks likely. My DMR keeps going strong and is indeed the ONLY R digital solution in existence. However, it is also very likely that I will acquire an additional DSLR system in the short term. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrc Posted June 20, 2009 Share #57 Posted June 20, 2009 I don't know how anybody could be surprised. I don't know how anybody could be surprised if the S2 goes down, either. It's not just the economy, it's that Leica does not now and never has had the money to do these things in pace with the bigger camera makers. And anyone who thinks that a deep-pockets owner will continue to bail out a failing company doesn't understand how the guy got deep pockets in the first place. I'm probably on a variety of ignore lists because I continue to say this, but simple statistics belie the fan-boy raves about the Leicas -- about the wonderful image quality. The simple fact is that we have huge numbers of photos produced by professional photographers every single day of the year, and only a tiny fraction of them use Leicas. For everybody else, including the art directors, etc., the people who are actually buying the end product, the quality of the Sonys, Nikons, Canons, etc., is just fine. The S2 is about to run into a similar wall -- the other MF cameras, with their marketing systems, their service systems, their loaner cameras, and all that. While a tiny fraction of esthetes may claim that they cannot *possibly* get along without the quality of the Leica lenses, I think the product-buyers will be perfectly happy with the IQ of the Hassys, etc. Sometimes I think Leica most urgently needs to shore up its service system; sometimes I think it most urgently needs to is to issue a modern M9 with such 1985 conveniences as focus confirm; but what I really think right now is that they most urgently need to hire a marketing strategist.. And I'm not sure of this, of course, but I think he'd probably recommend dropping everything but the M system. The M system still has possibilities. It even has possibilities with a 4/3 system, which Leica in its wisdom has said it won't support. Has anyone at Leica considered that a M-compatible 4/3 with EVIL and a terrific sensor would make mean the existing M-system lenses would then reach out to the equivalent of 270mm, and open the possibility of building more lenses at the wide end? And that Leica could build a couple extra zoom lenses to give it even longer reach and flexibility? And that it would then perpetuate the M system as long as people wanted to use M glass? And that all of this would be completely in the tradition of Leica as a small, handy camera? Traditionalists on this forum might not use an M-compatible 4/3 EVIL, but would you be willing to save Leica's life by selling M lenses to silly twits who *would* buy an EVIL? I do think an R EVIL is possible, and maybe even likely. I would further suggest that Panasonic could probably build a good one in about, oh, a year or so, and sell it for three thousand dollars -- the equivalent of the FF Sony. I'm sure the jewelry fans won't like it, but IQ fans might. JC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenneth Posted June 20, 2009 Share #58 Posted June 20, 2009 Indifferent Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NZDavid Posted June 21, 2009 Share #59 Posted June 21, 2009 Watch this space. I am still convinced there will be some new models, if not called R10. Trouble is, they take so damn long... and the market gets disappointed and disillusioned waiting. Couldn't the company send out some positive signs? The S2 no doubt is excellent, but it is a very very limited market, only top-end commercial photogs. Few will afford the asking price. There would be a much larger market for a more affordable DSLR. That should be obvious. I also believe there would be a market for a new compact digital CL, with more manual options than the D-Lux 4. If Olympus can come up with the new EP-1... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
atournas Posted June 21, 2009 Share #60 Posted June 21, 2009 Business is business, but loyalty is loyalty. Them and us. No excuse for the decapitation of the R system. The company may not see a riot, but it wont' avoid the consequences in the long run. And don't forget the Hasselblad V System case. Loyal V users have never felt the "Fuji-genic" H Seires is a real Hassey. Hope Leica M will survive the easy money. Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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