marknorton Posted June 13, 2009 Share #1 Posted June 13, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) We were expecting the "R10" to be a derivative of the S2, borrowing its technology and getting its own range of AF lenses while providing compatability with R lenses. That camera could have competed head on with the D3x or 1dS III in a form factor more like the D700 or EOS 5D II. It now turns out Leica do not see that as an option - too expensive for the likely volume with always the possibility of being wiped out in an instant by a new Canon or Nikon. Instead, it looks like Panasonic may be planning their own FF camera to be up there with C, N, S which will use (presumably) the best EVF Panasonic with their background in professional video can throw at it. Leica will (presumably) rebadge that camera, provide a means of mounting R lenses on it, tweak the firmware, hike the price. Call it (as I think Jaap named it) the Digilux-R. The R8/R9 (as stated by Leica) will only be repairable for so long, the DMR is already proving difficult so that's a problem long term. Leica may be designing a range of lenses to put on the Panasonic FF version, an exact re-run of the Digilux-3 situation. If so, Leica seem to think this can succeed where the Digilux-3 failed. Remember that Panasonic road-map of lenses for the 4/3 camera which eventually lead to nowhere? Leica took a bath with the Digilux-3. The same recklessness with the Digilux-R could break them. Question is, is the Digilux-R going to cut the mustard for those existing R users out there? Should Leica bother or should they instead look at other options which have the legacy R glass running on other cameras? Or even, should they just abandon the R glass to history? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 13, 2009 Posted June 13, 2009 Hi marknorton, Take a look here Should Leica bother with the Digilux-R? . I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
stunsworth Posted June 13, 2009 Share #2 Posted June 13, 2009 Difficult to say without knowing the specs of the camera, and it's possible even Leica don't know that at this stage. Personally I think they'd be better off washing their hands of the R system. There'd be howls of protest, but at least everyone would know where they stood rather than the current situation where no one knows what the future holds. I also think it must have been a deliberate decision for Leica to drop this bombshell at the meeting. It's not the sort of thing you put into the public domain without considering the impact it will have. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted June 13, 2009 Author Share #3 Posted June 13, 2009 Yes, and I expect they will be looking here to gauge reaction. Already, there's a significant negative response to the EVF. At the same time, R glass is usable on Canon bodies and, thanks to the Leitax adapters on Pentax and Nikon cameras, albeit with reduced operational convenience. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted June 13, 2009 Share #4 Posted June 13, 2009 The problem of course for all of those it that you are left with a manual diaphragm and stop down metering. In addition not all of the Canon bodies meter as you'd expect with uncoupled lenses. That might be ok for some - I shot digitally with a Canon body and R lenses for a few years - but it's not a mainstream solution IMHO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted June 13, 2009 Share #5 Posted June 13, 2009 ...Should Leica bother or should they instead look at other options which have the legacy R glass running on other cameras? Or even, should they just abandon the R glass to history? Looks like Leica has decided already: what you call the Digilux-R and i call the FF G1. Would i buy one? I'd much prefer an adapter ring allowing full aperture metering on my 5D or any other serious body. Marc, as an engineer, do you think such a ring could be feasible, or a mount a la Zeiss perhaps? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted June 13, 2009 Share #6 Posted June 13, 2009 I'd much prefer an adapter ring allowing full aperture metering on my 5D or any other serious body. Marc, as an engineer, do you think such a ring could be feasible, or a mount a la Zeiss perhaps? Sorry for butting in, but I don't think that's likely. If you look at the R to EOS adaptors they're not that thick, and from memory the aperture cam on the R lenses is begind the adaptor. I can't see that there's enough room to mount a lever in the adaptor to move the cam - not to mention there's be a need for electronics and a motor of some sort to provide the movement. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted June 13, 2009 Share #7 Posted June 13, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Instead, it looks like Panasonic may be planning their own FF camera Is there any tangible evidence for this or is it just speculation? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted June 13, 2009 Share #8 Posted June 13, 2009 Sorry for butting in, but I don't think that's likely. If you look at the R to EOS adaptors they're not that thick, and from memory the aperture cam on the R lenses is begind the adaptor... Makes sense Steve so what about a new mount a la Zeiss? Stupid question probably. Would be cheaper to buy a couple of Zeiss lenses i guess... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted June 13, 2009 Author Share #9 Posted June 13, 2009 I think it would be difficult; I don't have experience of Canon but on Nikon, the aperture rings work in the opposite sense to Leica, so that immediately precludes coupling the aperture ring to the camera to tell the camera what the selected aperture is. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted June 13, 2009 Share #10 Posted June 13, 2009 Is there any tangible evidence for this or is it just speculation? A tangible evidence from Leica you mean? You must have a solid sense of humour. You will forgive me if i don't laugh though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted June 13, 2009 Author Share #11 Posted June 13, 2009 Is there any tangible evidence for this or is it just speculation? No tangible evidence, just drawing (possibly/probably incorrect) inferences from the comments made last evening. What seems certain is that there has been a dramatic shift in Leica's plans the reasons for which we can all speculate on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted June 13, 2009 Share #12 Posted June 13, 2009 No tangible evidence, just drawing (possibly/probably incorrect) inferences from the comments made last evening. What seems certain is that there has been a dramatic shift in Leica's plans the reasons for which we can all speculate on. Sure, but I would think a FF camera from Panasonic is highly unlikely. Also I didn’t get the impression the good solution for taking R lenses into the digital age wasn’t something developed by Leica. I just don’t see Panasonic as a partner here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted June 13, 2009 Share #13 Posted June 13, 2009 Michael, do you know whether the contract between Leica and Panasonic has a fixed term such as the one between Zeiss and Sony? I'm guessing it may have some strict terms on exclusivity as well. I think you're right ... if it is not panasonic, then Leica is on their own. I only suspect that they don't have a clear roadmap yet, not to mention that roadmap could change at any time as we've seen numerous times in the last 2-3 years. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MP3 Posted June 14, 2009 Share #14 Posted June 14, 2009 I believe Panny is concentrating their effort on the next compact mFT camera rather than a FF model. Thus, the next high-end interchangable lenses camera Leica can rebadge from Panny will more likely be a mFT. In terms of future development, the R line is like an old man in his bed waiting for revival. It may be more realistic for Leica to rebadge a high-end Panny mFT line and licence Panny to make a new series of lenses line there. In such a way, new AF lenses no matter what you name them can flourish while R users can mount their beloved MF R lenses thur adapter. Yeah crop x2 but Leica can benefit from the new mFT camera and lenses. You know the sales of D-Lux 4 is extremely good ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted June 14, 2009 Share #15 Posted June 14, 2009 I was also thinking maybe Leica are better off just dropping the 'R10' plans altogether. Seems they are looking for a compromise solution, which probably won't satisfy the current R owners and won't offer any major benefits over other DSLR's to attract new customers. Of course viewpoints may differ if some more detail were known, but on the face of it they may be better off concentrating on the M and S2 for now, and there is still a gap in the market for a quality digital compact camera with a proper viewfinder.......(the Olympus is being announced this week but the photos look like its much the same as a Sigma). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted June 14, 2009 Share #16 Posted June 14, 2009 I just don’t see Panasonic as a partner here. As I've mentioned in one of the other threads, Leica have a €20m liability to Panasonic (a loan due to be repaid in 2011). I'd imagine that Leica may feel obliged to give a new Panasonic DLSR (even an EVF based one) a serious whirl. It may suit both partners if the thing becomes the 'replacement' for the DMR. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevelap Posted June 14, 2009 Share #17 Posted June 14, 2009 I believe Panny is concentrating their effort on the next compact mFT camera rather than a FF model. Thus, the next high-end interchangable lenses camera Leica can rebadge from Panny will more likely be a mFT. In terms of future development, the R line is like an old man in his bed waiting for revival. It may be more realistic for Leica to rebadge a high-end Panny mFT line and licence Panny to make a new series of lenses line there. In such a way, new AF lenses no matter what you name them can flourish while R users can mount their beloved MF R lenses thur adapter. Yeah crop x2 but Leica can benefit from the new mFT camera and lenses. You know the sales of D-Lux 4 is extremely good ! Wasn't one of the bits of information that came out of the meeting along the lines of 'Leica has no further interest in 4/3rds or M4/3rd's? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevelap Posted June 14, 2009 Share #18 Posted June 14, 2009 I suspect that the new camera will most likely be a Digilux 4 (or Digilux R if you like, but I can't see them using the R name again, given what's been said about the R line recently) developed through the Panasonic alliance. There will probably be new, smaller AF lenses for use on this new body, with legacy R lenses mounting via a PanaLeica adapter, similar to the official adapters recently introduced by Panasonic for the G1/G1H. As to whether this will be an "adequate" or "good" solution, I don't know, and some traditional R users are probably finding this development hard to take at the moment. It could be the only economically viable option though, or an inspired development, or both. Only time will tell. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted June 14, 2009 Author Share #19 Posted June 14, 2009 Sure, but I would think a FF camera from Panasonic is highly unlikely. Also I didn’t get the impression the good solution for taking R lenses into the digital age wasn’t something developed by Leica. I just don’t see Panasonic as a partner here. Michael, you are probably closer to the reality of this than any of us. As I understand it, the presumed derivative of the S2 - a FF DSLR to work with legacy R lenses and a range of new AF lenses - is not going to happen, because the business case doesn't stack up. How then can something completely different developed by Leica with some R compatibility be any better? Or will Leica enlist the help of a partner and provide some basic support for R lenses to save face. If so, which partner? Only Leica know what the accumulated R user base is. R sales have always been less than the M and the last time they published a breakdown, they were about 1/4. That does make me wonder how far Leica can and should go in supporting the R lenses beyond trying to secure the operational life of the R8/R9 bodies and the DMR. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brit321 Posted June 14, 2009 Share #20 Posted June 14, 2009 Hi Slightly off-track but I would like to see a proper Leica compact, I have a D-Lux 3 and now having become aware of its problems, biggest being no viewfinder, and lots of noise at lower light levels, I was considering the purchase of a D-Lux 4 but the basic problems have not been solved, add on viewfinder which is not linked to lens movement and is very expensive, the same noisy engine, this is not a true quality compact which I suspect is what a lot of people would chose to purchase, I must admit I have re-visited my trusty CONTAX TVS digital, ok its got a tiny led screen, but a proper viewfinder, ok its only 5mp but resulting images are very sharp and colour balance is superb and most importantly it is Truly a tough quality COMPACT not a compact pretending to be a system camera to hide its problems, All the best Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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