Who wants a Full Frame G1?

[andybarton]

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Alan

 

A whole post, and no mention of "L.V."?

 

You're slipping

 

Is it possible to make one body that would properly alllow the use of _all_ lenses from M to S?

[mjh]

I don't think so. R lenses are not even in production any more. It will be about new AF lenses primarily plus R lenses, and M lenses too. If the body is thin enough, (and why shouldn't it be without a mirror) a lot of different lenses could be adapted to it. M lenses would be a no brainer.

If it was that easy to get M lenses to work with a 36x24 mm sensor, we would have an M9 by now. R lenses, by comparison, present no problem at all. Neither do S2 lenses, for that matter. Even when Leica should eventually manage to develop a sensor that can deal with the range of incident angles typical for an M lens (and as they said yesterday, there is some hope), it would be doubtful whether the same sensor would be suitable for R lenses.

[AlanG]

Alan

 

A whole post, and no mention of "L.V."?

 

You're slipping

 

Is it possible to make one body that would properly alllow the use of _all_ lenses from M to S?

 

An EVF is live view. I hope you realize that the camera that is described in this announcement is exactly what I previously said that Leica should be producing.

 

Yes one body could use all those lenses as long as Leica gives it an adapter that has the electronic linkage to the S2 lenses. Why shouldn't they? It would be reasonable for the new AF lenses for this EVF camera to be controlled the same way that the S2 lenses are controlled. The M and R lenses are easy, the G1 can use them. The S2 lenses would be cropped but their larger circle of coverage would facilitate a tilt/shift adapter.

 

The M and R lenses should work fine stopped down. (Those M lenses that don't vignette too badly on FF.) But there is no reason why Leica couldn't make an adapter that stops the R lenses down at the time of exposure. (Maybe using a simple solenoid controlled by the electronics in the new camera.)

[AlanG]

If it was that easy to get M lenses to work with a 36x24 mm sensor, we would have an M9 by now. R lenses, by comparison, present no problem at all. Neither do S2 lenses, for that matter. Even when Leica should eventually manage to develop a sensor that can deal with the range of incident angles typical for an M lens (and as they said yesterday, there is some hope), it would be doubtful whether the same sensor would be suitable for R lenses.

 

On another post, I said that some M lenses would work on FF without too much vignetting and some wouldn't. Probably 35mm on up. It beats not having a hi res FF body for any M lenses. This camera will have some new wide angle lenses and probably some f2.8 wide zooms.

 

I'm waiting to see someone use the Nikon mount 15mm CV lens on a full frame Canon now that the mirror can be raised for live view. (Perhaps a Nikon body would work too.) I wouldn't be surprised if the short lenses will work better than we may think with the Canon sensor and its microlenses. I think Canon has a good microlens/senor combo for off axis photography. That may be the reason why Canon TSE lenses work so well on the Canon yet worked so poorly on the Kodak DCS SLRc (FF Canon mount 14 megapixel camera.) It worked pretty well on this test -

 

Voigtlander 15mm v Sigma 12-24mm: Intro

[AlanG]

...Even when Leica should eventually manage to develop a sensor that can deal with the range of incident angles typical for an M lens (and as they said yesterday, there is some hope), it would be doubtful whether the same sensor would be suitable for R lenses.

 

I've given this some thought. If the micro lenses for the M8's sensor are so optimized for wide angle lenses, then how does it work well with 50mm and longer lenses?

[mgcd]

I've given this some thought. If the micro lenses for the M8's sensor are so optimized for wide angle lenses, then how does it work well with 50mm and longer lenses?

 

No I meant this thread was really about R lenses NOT M lenses, before you highjacked it

[AlanG]

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No I meant this thread was really about R lenses NOT M lenses, before you highjacked it

 

Blame Mark.

 

---- Originally Posted by marknorton

---- I think their business case would be stronger if this new camera could accept both M and R glass.

 

Lenses are lenses... What's the difference between using a 50mm R Summicron or a 50mm M Summicron on this thing? (Unless they support the R's auto diaphragm in some way that may or may not be that beneficial.)

 

The key to me that a lot of people don't seem to be getting is that this camera is likely to be the future foundation for the M system too. (Maybe somewhat distant future.)

 

I commend Leica for looking ahead and planning a model that will be a foundation for its future. Of course the hope is that the EVF will be usable. They are taking a chance perhaps going to the "bleeding edge" for the EVF and AF rather than playing it safe with a "me too" product that would be much more complex and probably wouldn't be competitive. But what's their alternative?

[mgcd]

Well... You still don't seem to get it...

 

Back to the original topic, as a self respecting R user I will never accept an EVF contraption to mount my R lenses. Thankfully, I have a few Rs at my disposal including my DMR. Depending on price point, the S2 may be of interest, that said other manufacturers currently offer viable DSLR choices in the meantime.

[lct]

...Of course the hope is that the EVF will be usable. They are taking a chance perhaps going to the "bleeding edge" for the EVF and AF rather than playing it safe with a "me too" product that would be much more complex and probably wouldn't be competitive. But what's their alternative?

If their alternative is EVF or EVF there is indeed no chance that Leica can compete vs Canon, Nikon, Sony and other OVF makers so far. Do you expect the latters to abandon OVFs in a near future?

[marknorton]

Blame Mark.

 

---- Originally Posted by marknorton

---- I think their business case would be stronger if this new camera could accept both M and R glass.

 

Yes, guilty as charged for daring to suggest a common platform for M and legacy R glass.

 

The difficulty I'm having is that Leica say they don't want to muscle in on the FF DSLR market yet are proposing a FF (presumed) camera with EVF for legacy R glass users. If they then have to produce a whole series of new AF-R lenses, isn't that exactly what they are effectively doing, trying to muscle in on that market? Huge expense developing that range of lenses to compete in a market dominated by Nikon, Canon, Sony/Zeiss. Or is this a limited solution for legacy R glass users only? "We can sell you a camera but not any lenses to put on it, try ebay" doesn't sound a commercial starter to me.

 

Instead, think of a pure M9 camera with the things we (OK, I) want - FF, optional Live view allowing focus confirmation in the viewfinder with or without the LCD active, a new no holds barred vario optical viewfinder with better eye comfort to get rid of aux finders, magnifiers and dioptres and the rest. Top of the tree stuff.

 

Then think of that camera re-packaged to take out some of the cost and look like the FF G1 LCT is talking about. Live view + EVF + Articulating LCD to provide an alternative operating model. Adapters for M, legacy R glass and S glass, no new dedicated AF-R lenses but instead a range of cropped AF-S lenses which can mount on this camera and an S-2 running in a cropped mode. After all, an S-2 running 24*36 is still 24MP.

 

It really is time to dump the R mount for any new lens development.

 

The concern for me is whether Leica would be brave enough to do away with all the gratuitous junk you find on cameras like the G1, from puny flash through to scene modes. I wonder whether Leica have realised yet that S(-tupid) mode was not their best decision ever?

[wildlightphoto]

Keep in mind that we are at the very early stages of EVFs.

 

I agree with Alan. Recall that early SLR cameras had no instant-return mirror, no auto-diaphragm, and no pentaprism (let alone AE, AF, VR...): that's the stage of development present EVF cameras are in. I'm not interested in the EVF cameras presently on the market but allowing for the pace of improvements we've seen in electronic technology I won't rule out future developments.

[mjh]

I've given this some thought. If the micro lenses for the M8's sensor are so optimized for wide angle lenses, then how does it work well with 50mm and longer lenses?

Yep, that’s the real issue. You can easily optimize the microlens positions for one particular lens with a certain position of its exit pupil. But if you take this optimization too far, the microlenses will cause vignetting with other lenses with a differently positioned exit pupil. That the incident angle is growing from the optical axis towards the edges of the sensor isn’t so much of an issue; microlens shifting takes care of that quite nicely. The real issue is the range of different incident angles each microlens has to deal with, depending on the main lens. So the reason it took Leica so long to develop the M8 was that they had to find a microlens shifting pattern that would work for all the M lenses available. The larger the sensor, finding such a compromise gets increasingly more difficult, which is why there is still no M9 with a 36 mm x 24 mm sensor.

[audidudi]

I'm waiting to see someone use the Nikon mount 15mm CV lens on a full frame Canon now that the mirror can be raised for live view. (Perhaps a Nikon body would work too.) I wouldn't be surprised if the short lenses will work better than we may think with the Canon sensor and its microlenses.

 

I have been using both the CV 12mm and 15mm Nikon-mount lenses on my DMC-L1 (and now, my DMC-G1) via adapters with considerable success. As proof, here's a photo of the 12mm lens on my G1:

 

 

 

IMO, the 12mm lens has to be stopped down to f8 in order to achieve adequate sharpness, which renders it a tripod-only lens for the most part, as I prefer to shoot at ISO100 only with these cameras, but the 15mm is happy from f5.6 onward, so I'm able to handhold it more often. Depending upon the scenes I'm photographing, I do sometimes experience smeared corners, vignetting, and color shifts, but I'd say this happens maybe 1 in 20 times, so it's generally a non-issue for me.

 

One complaint I do have, though, is that the Nikon-mount version of the 12mm lens cannot use any of the LTM-mount version's accessories: Not the lens hood, the filter holder, or the case. I learned this the hard way, after I purchased all of the above, because Voigtlander never mentioned it. Of course, the lens is also NLA (unless you want to pay Steven Gandy $1300 for his last copy of it!) and they're not very common on the used market, so this is largely academic in any event. :-/

[Riley]

The closest thing to what we're talking about here to date is the Sony R1, a fixed lens EVF camera with an APS-C sensor larger than all the Panasonic/Olympus cohorts.

 

not by a lot

 

Sensor 21.5 x 14.4 mm CMOS sensor

310 sq mm ASP variant

 

and the thing was the size of a tiger tank

[AlanG]

Well... You still don't seem to get it...

 

Back to the original topic, as a self respecting R user I will never accept an EVF contraption to mount my R lenses. Thankfully, I have a few Rs at my disposal including my DMR. Depending on price point, the S2 may be of interest, that said other manufacturers currently offer viable DSLR choices in the meantime.

 

I really don't think this new camera has anything to do with R lenses except they may happen to work on it. The goal is to sell new lenses not recycle the old ones. My bet is that it will be made by Panasonic - lenses and all... maybe with some guidance from Leica. I can't see a competitively priced FF EVF camera system coming to market developed and produced solely by Leica. And Panasonic has the desire and ability to be a competitive player in the market now that cameras have become electronic appliances. Perhaps by using the name "Leica" for this model, Panasonic hopes to establish some gravitas and expects to get more market penetration among enthusiasts and pros.

 

And yes eventually, OVFs in SLRs will for the most part be a thing of the past. It is just a matter of economics, development, and time. I'm not saying that you and I have to like it but I expect there will be much less resistance among new and future photographers.

[AlanG]

I have been using both the CV 12mm and 15mm Nikon-mount lenses on my DMC-L1 (and now, my DMC-G1) via adapters with considerable success. As proof, here's a photo of the 12mm lens on my G1:

 

 

I'd love to be able to try one of these on a 5DII via a Nikon to EOS adapter. I can't believe nobody has done it. That should tell the story of what happens when a lens that presents rays to the corner of this FF sensor at an extremely acute angle. I believe that all of the current M w/a lenses are far less acute than this.

[Riley]

I'd love to be able to try one of these on a 5DII via a Nikon to EOS adapter. I can't believe nobody has done it. That should tell the story of what happens when a lens that presents rays to the corner of this FF sensor at an extremely acute angle. I believe that all of the current M w/a lenses are far less acute than this.

 

i remember Joseph Wisniewski saying that some of the wider Voigtlanders have approach angles as big as 60 degrees

[sdai]

not by a lot

 

Sensor 21.5 x 14.4 mm CMOS sensor

310 sq mm ASP variant

 

and the thing was the size of a tiger tank

 

The bulk of the R1 is mainly due to the size of its lens, whatever solution Leica/Panasonic/XYZ comes up with for the R lenses, it's bound to be larger than the R1.

 

To be honest, I think the EVIL camera solution for R was only a haphazard comment made by S.D after the dinner in no seriousness. Leica may have thought about it at a certain stage, forum members may have suggested for a long while. But it doesn't make any sense economic wise nor technology wise.

 

If Leica is gonna do a EVIL camera for the mass market, why does it have to carry the baggage of R? all can be started from scratch.

[stevelap]

........The difficulty I'm having is that Leica say they don't want to muscle in on the FF DSLR market yet are proposing a FF (presumed) camera with EVF for legacy R glass users. If they then have to produce a whole series of new AF-R lenses, isn't that exactly what they are effectively doing, trying to muscle in on that market.........

 

In this new scenario Mark, I don't see them producing any new AF-R lenses. I suspect that the new camera will most likely be a Digilux 4 (or Digilux R if you like, but I can't see them using the R name again, given what's been said about the R line recently) developed through the Panasonic alliance.

There will probably be new, smaller AF lenses for use on this new body, with legacy R lenses mounting via a PanaLeica adapter, similar to the official adapters recently introduced by Panasonic for the G1/G1H.

 

As to whether this will be an "adequate" or "good" solution, I don't know, and some traditional R users are probably finding this development hard to take at the moment. It could be the only economically viable option though, or an inspired development, or both. Only time will tell.

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[sdai]

As to whether this will be an "adequate" or "good" solution, I don't know, and some traditional R users are probably finding this development hard to take at the moment. It could be the only economically viable option though, or an inspired development, or both. Only time will tell.

 

Everybody will use his/her own standard to judge whether it's good or bad, Steve ... but given time, most people will simply forget about it, and I'm afraid that's exactly what Leica wants to see and has planned.

 

Let me ask you, who still cares about the Hassy CF gears? or Contax 645s for that matter? the list could expand ... my suggestion to everyone on the board is, just go out and breathe some fresh air.

 

I don't spend a lot of time on internet chatboards as many folks here do and I came here (almost only) for the R10. The R surely is like a terminally ill patient, to be frank with you all, by the time I heard Stefan Daniel announcing its death I felt great relief!

 

If Leica doesn't see any good reason to extend its life today, how would there be better reasons tomorrow?

 

The photographic world is full of great gear choices ... whatever Leica will do, I hope it's good and they can have my money again if it lives up to the hype.