R10 RIP, but...

[leicar888]

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I grew up with my father's M3, M2, and M2R and various lenses as well as Metz flashes. When I finally bought an M6 TTL in the 1990s, I immediately knew the 135mm focal length limitation would not meet my needs, so I bought an R7. I hated the reverse curl the R7's take-up spool created, as did all previous R bodies, and when the R8 was released I fondled one at a dealer's store and quickly bought it. I still use the R8 a lot whereas my chrome R7, in mint condition, is stored under a bed. I own a ton of R lenses and plan to continue capturing images on film with my R8, but a digital R option, compatible with my R lenses, would be appreciated because some people that ask me to capture images for them do request digital images rather than film images because of the quick turn-around time factor involving the former. The quality of the R lenses is wonderful; therefore, I will never sell and get rid of any of my R equipment.

[erl]

Thinking "outside my head" (which is probably a good idea ),is there any possibility that Leica could be considering a 'renovation' scheme whereby they offer R8/9 owners etc a permanent remodelling of the camera body by removing 'filmic bits' and fitting a permanent FF sensor (yes, the film rails would be gone) all as an upgrade, allowing continued use of all lenses, but now as digital?

 

Disclaimer: I'm not (that sort of) an engineer, so I dream fancifully and freely. I also clutch at straws.

[hamey]

Yeah, it's definitely much better than crummy SLRs and toy EVFs I've seen to date. That being said, it's pretty craptastic compared with an R9. Or a D3. Or even a 5d, which is hardly world-beating in terms of views...

 

In other words, for the first time in a long time, my standards are apparently higher than Leica's, since I don't think the Panny EVF is nearly good enough.

 

So I have to admit my feeling is with Conrad's. Unless Leica is proposing something revolutionary in quality with an EVF, I don't know why they can't just make a mini-S2 that's compatible with R glass.

 

Or just come up with a suitable replacement with a great optical mechanism. Leica is good at that stuff; I don't know why they'd mess it up.

 

But by the time they do this anyway, I'll probably have done something else with my R glass anyway. The R system--as a system--really is dead, and Leica killed it.

 

Jamie,

 

They had no choice, they are spending a lot of money on the S system, it needs no in house

rival as the R would have been that.

 

If you're into Digital imaging I would look else where, Electronic imaging is moving so fast you need to pick a company that has the financial and technical resources.

 

I also have a number of R lenses, what will happen to them, personally I don't know I will continue using

them with film, if however I am unable to by my slide film, then I will look at another alternative system like

Nikon or Canon.

 

 

Cheers.

[rsolomon]

Perhaps a Digilux 4 will come out ...... 4/3's or micro 4/3rd's, combine the best of the Digilux 2 & 3, upgrade the internals for cleaner performance at higher iso, up the iso to 6400, make it 5 fps, via existing adpater use R lenses.....hopefully will have ovf like the digilux 3...

 

i would be happy .....

[Jamie Roberts]

Jamie,

 

They had no choice, they are spending a lot of money on the S system, it needs no in house

rival as the R would have been that.

{snipped}

 

 

Perhaps, but I was thinking more of an in-house complement than a rival. I'll never afford an S2 and lenses. The business will simply not justify it, and try as I might I can't imagine a business model for event photographers that could justify it...

 

OTH, a mini-S2--same everything smaller sensor and optimized for shooting speed and capable of using adapted R lenses--well, that could make me buy the lenses (same ones after all) and ditch the Nikons.

 

I just don't see why this would be a problem. 99% of the development would go into the s2 anyway.

 

To tell the truth, investing in S glass might actually get me to the S2 or equivalent someday. But making me use some crappy EVF consumer-solution is not going to do it, and just shows the contempt the current Leica crowd must have for R users in general.

 

(If I sound angry, it's because I am )

 

Anyway, it doesn't make sense to just alienate or visually knee-cap all your R users. I suppose about the only thing that could turn this bitterness around for me would be to see the S2 priced at a D3x level (though I'd expect the glass to be pricier, of course).

 

Even then--I don't need the resolution as much as I need speed! The M8 is really slow, the DMR even slower, the S2 will also be---slow.

 

This is not good and hardly a bonus for "keeping the faith "

 

So I think Leica has missed a very large boat and owes its users a lot more than "a suitable solution will be found."

 

Sigh. I wish they'd just lay out their plans for us so we know how to spend scant resources.

 

Anyway, I hope I'm wrong about all this, but I fear I'm not. We'll see at the end of the month, I guess, when S2 prices are revealed.

[rvalarcher]

One more very angry pro photographer,

Even if I am a newcomer in this forum ,I have been using Leica camera and lenses for 44 years ,why ? because this company seemed at that time to be respecting their consumers ,I could trust what they said about the quality of their products,and they never disappointed me;

I am using M8 + 2 lenses and R9 +DMR and a lot of lenses ( 50 to 400mm)

The S2 is not for me :too expensive even if I've heard from a leica commercial something like € 13000 (body + one lens), and I do not need such big files!

I don't want an EVF camera! I need a body at the level of the quality of the lenses!

I will keep my DMR as long as possible and I will see what kind of solution the company will offer, but after all these promises and for me they are not promises but lies I will no more trust them until the product will be available.

But to day ,if leica managers respect the photographres they must at least answer some questions:

-how long will it be possible to repare R8, R9 , DMR and R lenses?

-What about the DMR batteries, who was the manufacturer and is it possible to have them refurbished?

I think (a french guy is sometimes a little bit romantic!) that a link of confidance between managers,commercials and photographers as been broken but I will always respect the wonderful work made by workers and engineers to build cameras and bodies and I do not associate them to my anger!

(sorry if my english is not very correct I will try to do better a next time !

 

Robert Valarcher

[mgcd]

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Jamie - I agree with what you said above, I had been hoping for an R10 that would have provided a much higher burst rate, excellent quality 3200 ISO, true 16 bit full frame capture. Now I'm just hoping that Leica has the foresight to position the S2 at the same price point as the D3x... I'm not holding my breath.

[jaapv]

One more very angry pro photographer,

Even if I am a newcomer in this forum ,I have been using Leica camera and lenses for 44 years ,why ? because this company seemed at that time to be respecting their consumers ,I could trust what they said about the quality of their products,and they never disappointed me;

I am using M8 + 2 lenses and R9 +DMR and a lot of lenses ( 50 to 400mm)

The S2 is not for me :too expensive even if I've heard from a leica commercial something like € 13000 (body + one lens), and I do not need such big files!

I don't want an EVF camera! I need a body at the level of the quality of the lenses!

I will keep my DMR as long as possible and I will see what kind of solution the company will offer, but after all these promises and for me they are not promises but lies I will no more trust them until the product will be available.

But to day ,if leica managers respect the photographres they must at least answer some questions:

-how long will it be possible to repare R8, R9 , DMR and R lenses?

-What about the DMR batteries, who was the manufacturer and is it possible to have them refurbished?

I think (a french guy is sometimes a little bit romantic!) that a link of confidance between managers,commercials and photographers as been broken but I will always respect the wonderful work made by workers and engineers to build cameras and bodies and I do not associate them to my anger!

(sorry if my english is not very correct I will try to do better a next time !

 

Robert Valarcher

 

Welcome to the forum, Robert. I can understand your frustration, but there are a few points you need to consider.

Leica was committed to the construction of an R10, very seriously too. But they looked into the relationship between the costs and the price it would have to be, and considered the position such a camera would have in a market dominated by Japanese DSLRs. The conclusion was that the proposition, in this economic climate, was simply not viable. It would have turned into a money pit that would probably have finished off Leica. So, reluctantly, they had to decide to shelve the project.

As for the servicability of the current R products, there have been no definite dates of discontinuation given. But Leica will support those, even the DMR, about which there was some concern until very recently, into the forseeable future.

And yes, there are already companies that will refurbish any battery.

[guidowi]

I quote every word from Robert Valarcher and I share all his disappointing.

I think that from our point of view the problem is exactly our respect as costumers.

As my Franch colleague I am working since decades with Leica cameras and now with M8 and DMR that are slow, more difficult to use than Japaneese DSLR, more expensive (and the jobs done with a leica are not paied more money) but I am fascinated by the feeling of the tools in my hands and the lens quality.

Now I understand that I had invested an important amount of money in R Lens supporting Leica for years but they no longer support me!

Who asked for a Leica Medium Format Camera? Sure not the R clients.

 

Robert, I think that your English is better than mine.

 

Guido Wilhelm - Milan

[Jamie Roberts]

{snipped}

Leica was committed to the construction of an R10, very seriously too. But they looked into the relationship between the costs and the price it would have to be, and considered the position such a camera would have in a market dominated by Japanese DSLRs. The conclusion was that the proposition, in this economic climate, was simply not viable. It would have turned into a money pit that would probably have finished off Leica. So, reluctantly, they had to decide to shelve the project.

 

Jaap--this is a bit too much. They're already building a reflex camera already that is just about the size of a 5d2. IOW, they're already digging the money pit; why the heck wouldn't you make a product in addition that could help you recoup some of your losses?

 

So forgive me if I don't follow the logic here. The D3x is not a cheap camera by any means (neither is the 1ds3, come to that), but I guess Leica is saying they can't make a better, S2 lens-capable (and R compatible) camera for $8K US--which FWIW I'd gladly pay for a faster, handier, more capable DMR.

 

Ok, that's fine--it's their business.

 

But the apology just doesn't ring true somehow, and sounds more like simply wishing a segment of their market into the S2 space that just isn't going to happen.

 

I'll be happy to be wrong, but once again I'm fear I'm not.

 

As for the servicability of the current R products, there have been no definite dates of discontinuation given. But Leica will support those, even the DMR, about which there was some concern until very recently, into the forseeable future.

Though again I fear the mentality that ditched the whole R system will mean that the price for servicing an R9 or DMR will become ever increasingly more rarified, customized, error-prone and very, very expensive.

 

I don't think anyone can accuse me of being a glass-half-empty kind of guy... but I'm still working through the apparent lack of trust here

 

It's just a camera though. Ultimately, if Leica doesn't want to sell me one (and more glass) that's their decision, not mine.

[rvalarcher]

Please believe me Jaapv there is absolutely no frustation just anger and this is very different for me, on june 8 in paris at the S2 show I was told all what is written in the overgaard website :AF, full frame, maestro and bla bla bla... coming very soon ,and you know what was said a few days after.

For me there is a problem of communication somewhere! Are they able to stop such a project in a so few days? may be ,who knows!

I would like to trust them when they say they will propose a digital possibility for R lenses owners, but it's not easy!

I think that we must receive information about their commitment to repare R8 ,R9 ,DMR lenses and for how long; no commitment ,no confidence!

Thank you for your info about the refurbishment of dmr batteries,I would appreciate if you could give me a link because two of my batteries are dead;(I am surprised that LEICA was not able to communicate about that ,just to help dmr owners!)

There is no frustation at all because if I feel manipulated, I will have no problem to switch to canon or nikon, things are changing but as I have said I respect the job done by all those ( opticians , engineers, workers ) who produced such wondeful lenses.

in this reply there is no anger towards you Jaapv and thank you to try to cool me!

[blakley]

An EVF's not bad in principle, though the ones I've used to date haven't been fantastic. Done right, it could have significant advantages; you could turn up the gain in dark conditions and actually see better than would be possible through an OVF, regardless of lens aperture. You could tune the spectral sensitivity and see "live view" of IR or UV images. And, of course, without a mirror, you could fit a wider variety of lenses to it than just R lenses.

 

If you imagine Olympus' new EP-1 with an R adaptor and EVF you might see some potential. Won't likely be up to R construction standards though...

[mhoersch]

Welcome to the forum, Robert. I can understand your frustration, but there are a few points you need to consider.

Leica was committed to the construction of an R10, very seriously too. But they looked into the relationship between the costs and the price it would have to be, and considered the position such a camera would have in a market dominated by Japanese DSLRs. The conclusion was that the proposition, in this economic climate, was simply not viable. It would have turned into a money pit that would probably have finished off Leica. So, reluctantly, they had to decide to shelve the project.

As for the servicability of the current R products, there have been no definite dates of discontinuation given. But Leica will support those, even the DMR, about which there was some concern until very recently, into the forseeable future.

And yes, there are already companies that will refurbish any battery.

 

Jaap, I would be very glad if someone could explain the reasoning that's behind all this:

 

Tens of thousands of longtime loyal Leica customers owning a lot of very expensive first class R glass have been eagerly waiting for many years for Leica to produce a digital R. Now why is it that making such a camera and giving it to the waiting customers is supposed to ruin Leica instantly?

 

Whereas a small number of professionals are expected to abandon their professional Hasselblad/Mamiya/Phase/Leaf equipment as soon as Leica reinvents the leaf shutter and throws their S2 plus a set of prohibitively expensive lenses - both of which will be compatible with nothing but themselves - on a small and dwindling market. Why is it that this extremely improbable scenario is supposed to completely revolutionize the whole photo industry and make Leica its one and only technological leader and turn in a huge profit on the side so it will save the company?

 

I am totally at a loss to understand this line of thinking.

[Jamie Roberts]

{snipped}

 

Whereas a small number of professionals are expected to abandon their professional Hasselblad/Mamiya/Phase/Leaf equipment as soon as Leica reinvents the leaf shutter and throws their S2 plus a set of prohibitively expensive lenses - both of which will be compatible with nothing but themselves - on a small and dwindling market. Why is it that this extremely improbable scenario is supposed to completely revolutionize the whole photo industry and make Leica its one and only technological leader and turn in a huge profit on the side so it will save the company?

 

I am totally at a loss to understand this line of thinking.

 

Actually, I understand Leica investing in a "flagship camera", even if it doesn't make them much money!

 

But then the smart thing to do would be to makes tons of money on an "R10" / S?? priced affordably and on whatever the image processing and sensor work brings to a new M9.

 

The S2 alone, unless it's priced to compete with Nikon, not Hassy, will not bring Leica's fortunes back.

[like_no_other]

 

...

and throws their S2 plus a set of prohibitively expensive lenses

 

 

Please stop spreading these unfounded negative rumours. You don't know the lens prices.

 

both of which will be compatible with nothing but themselves - on a small and dwindling market. Why is it that this extremely improbable scenario is supposed to completely revolutionize the whole photo industry and make Leica its one and only technological leader and turn in a huge profit on the side so it will save the company?

 

Wherefrom do you know that Leica doesn't expand the market nor pushes C1&H out of the market if these companies don't do that by themselves by their stupid price dumping strategy?

 

'completely revolutionize the whole photo industry'

 

What do you really think? Will Leica participate in a small shrinking market or is their target to revolutionize the whole photo industry?

[hoppyman]

Erl, Stefan Daniel's address to the dinner sadly tromps on your dream.

DMR sales were only around 10% of the M8 when it was being made.

Leica's business relationship with Imacon ended.

The lusted after R10 would have cost something like 6000 Euro for a body, so that the market was likely to be largely manual focus R lens owners/enthusiasts, Since new sales of R lenses had been moribund for some time and finally officially stopped. Apparently the existing customer base was insufficient for the R10 to be viable in the current climate. Let's see what the mystery 'good solution for R lenses on digital' will be? But not before next Photokina, not related to S2 and not a dSLR.

Thinking "outside my head" (which is probably a good idea ),is there any possibility that Leica could be considering a 'renovation' scheme whereby they offer R8/9 owners etc a permanent remodelling of the camera body by removing 'filmic bits' and fitting a permanent FF sensor (yes, the film rails would be gone) all as an upgrade, allowing continued use of all lenses, but now as digital?

 

Disclaimer: I'm not (that sort of) an engineer, so I dream fancifully and freely. I also clutch at straws.

[bephoto]

NOT CONFIRMED BUT HEARD FROM A PANASONIC SHAREHOLDER: Panasonic took over a Research & Development project from leica which leica was working for 5 years. i guess its panasonics first Professional DSLR with R mount. Panasonic is going to compete with big boys of dslr (nikon & canon) with Leica-R arsenals. I hope this is true

[R10dreamer]

In my opinion the fall of the DMR and R lines are centered around ONE issue. Manual focus lenses. While I love manual focus most people don't and trying to sell a DMR on a manual focus system and expecting anything less than great sales is ridiculous.

[Jamie Roberts]

In my opinion the fall of the DMR and R lines are centered around ONE issue. Manual focus lenses. While I love manual focus most people don't and trying to sell a DMR on a manual focus system and expecting anything less than great sales is ridiculous.

 

But they're making AF lenses for the S2!

 

Tell me again why they couldn't make a reflex camera with a smaller sensor that uses the S2 mount (and an adapter for R glass?) Yes, you throw away part of the image circle of the S2 lens, but people do that now with M glass and the M8 (and maybe even on some lenses in the existing R system).

 

@ bephoto: A Panasonic R? Who would make the AF lenses? Panasonic? And if they're going to play against Canon, Nikon and Sony, wouldn't they have to make an full-frame camera with an optical viewfinder?

 

I mean, what's the point of a $900 Panasonic that takes R glass? Why wouldn't I just buy a Digital Rebel and be done with it?

 

I guess we'll all see what happens.

[Advertisement]

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[rvalarcher]

I think that we must receive something different from LEICA managers than: we have stopped manufacturing all the R-system ,wait please no DSLR ,for maintenance ,trust us(?) and what else :BYE BYE!

My feeling is that we R-users have bought very expensive equipment for our work or pleasure and doing so we have supported financially a brand we trusted in; I remember having been mugged by a french photographer in Bandhavgarh (india) ten years ago who told me: woo your are working with Leica but by now nobody want no more work with them! I am still proud to use my equipment and will defend the quality of lenses and bodies but if this story end only with a bye bye!!!!!!!

We must get serious and accurate info about the maintenance of R8, R9 ,DMR and LENSES.

We must know if what will be proposed as a digital solution will at least be at the level of the dmr !

And for me it would not be a shame to say :

"thank you for having supported the R-system we are now financially unable to build a DSLR at the level of existing R lenses and we will help you to go on (leitax, canon rings ...)

or wait we commite to present soon a digital solution of high level"

I stop I guess I have said all I wanted to say.