Guest BigSplash Posted June 14, 2009 Share #161 Posted June 14, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Frank, I meant a new set of lenses for use on the Visioflex, there are no current lenses that would work. So it someone already had a 180mm R lens they'd need to buy a new one. Well I agree but then there is no "R" lenses or "S" lenses available anyway currently...in fact Leica are not in the SLR business. My point remains that Leica would do well to conceive a M9 new body, and a "R" lens offering that comprehends an eventual new gen mirror housing. This would ensure that: > The M9 had data outputs (wireless?) and at least battery contacts that could be used within the mirror housing > The "R" lenses at above say 90mm ( or 200mm) were available with differing register lengths or with an adapter for both systems. > Ditto for macro work and a bellows that should be basically the same ( obviously different M bayonnet, and "R" bayonnet) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 14, 2009 Posted June 14, 2009 Hi Guest BigSplash, Take a look here Challenges for new Leica CEO. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
lct Posted June 14, 2009 Share #162 Posted June 14, 2009 I clearly am missing something when I look at these pictures... First the Viso would not allow the 35mm lens to focus to infinity would it? Second why would one use a 35mm on a viso and then onto a M8... Frank, if you refer to focal lengths, what you see on those pics are not 35mm lenses. Just the Elmarit-M 135/2.8 (code # 11829) and the Elmarit-R 135/2.8 (code # 11211) which are basically the same lens. As you probably know, the "head" of the 135/2.8 can be unscrewed and mounted on a Visoflex through an adapter ring. Same with your 90/2 (code # 11123) BTW. Anyway the idea of a DSLR seems to be abandonned by Leica, aside from the S2, so your super Viso would have to compete vs an EVF camera apparently. Wonder which one i would hate most... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giordano Posted June 14, 2009 Share #163 Posted June 14, 2009 Third one may wish to look at the comparison photo and use some imagination that would suggest that the Viso prism unit could TODAY be made much smaller and neater along the lines of R4 or Canon 5D...and then electronics could be fitted at the same time with no impact on the overall size. Frank, remember that the height of the Visoflex unit is fixed by the need for the distance from the lens flange via the mirror to the focusing screen to be identical to the distance from the lens flange to film or sensor. This means you can't make the Visoflex any lower without also making it shallower front-to-back - and if you examine a Viso II or III with the finder removed you'll see that there's precious little room to do this while leaving room for the focusing screen and bayonet mounts. No doubt it would be possible to make the prism housing a little smaller - but if you compare the distance from the bottom of the focusing screen to the top of the prism housing the Visoflex prism is only a few mm taller than those on 35mm SLRs that show you 100% of the screen at a decent magnification. IOW the minimum dimensions of a reflex housing for a rangefinder camera are fixed by the optical and mechanical requirements. Wishing won't make it smaller. As far as I know the Viso II is the smallest reflex housing ever made for a 35mm body: all the offerings from Canon, Contax and Nikon (not to mention Kilfitt and Novoflex) were much larger. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted June 14, 2009 Share #164 Posted June 14, 2009 Frank, remember that the height of the Visoflex unit is fixed by the need for the distance from the lens flange via the mirror to the focusing screen to be identical to the distance from the lens flange to film or sensor. This means you can't make the Visoflex any lower without also making it shallower front-to-back - and if you examine a Viso II or III with the finder removed you'll see that there's precious little room to do this while leaving room for the focusing screen and bayonet mounts. No doubt it would be possible to make the prism housing a little smaller - but if you compare the distance from the bottom of the focusing screen to the top of the prism housing the Visoflex prism is only a few mm taller than those on 35mm SLRs that show you 100% of the screen at a decent magnification. IOW the minimum dimensions of a reflex housing for a rangefinder camera are fixed by the optical and mechanical requirements. Wishing won't make it smaller. As far as I know the Viso II is the smallest reflex housing ever made for a 35mm body: all the offerings from Canon, Contax and Nikon (not to mention Kilfitt and Novoflex) were much larger. I agree with all of the above statements as constraints. I would however note: A further constraint: The Viso should only ever be used for Macro or Telephoto (defined as somehwere above 75mm)..otherwise use M camera as is. The M8 is the best camera in te world for this segment...everyone agrees that! If we agree this the lens flange to sensor distance is purely a matter of different register lengths for the Tele lenses...and overall size implication is a dont care if you have a long focus length anyway. The Prism size looks clunky....I think it is a styling issue mainly and in need of some cosmetic treatment....again if you have a 560mm lens or a bellows on a tripod ...who cares about a prism with a few extr mm height? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted June 14, 2009 Share #165 Posted June 14, 2009 Frank, if you refer to focal lengths, what you see on those pics are not 35mm lenses. Just the Elmarit-M 135/2.8 (code # 11829) and the Elmarit-R 135/2.8 (code # 11211) which are basically the same lens.As you probably know, the "head" of the 135/2.8 can be unscrewed and mounted on a Visoflex through an adapter ring. Same with your 90/2 (code # 11123) BTW. Anyway the idea of a DSLR seems to be abandonned by Leica, aside from the S2, so your super Viso would have to compete vs an EVF camera apparently. Wonder which one i would hate most... Agree on all of this (see my posting on the R10 news in the S2 forum). I believe that they are thinking of a super Viso or an innovative EVF approach that would have to allow accurate focussing..not just framing of the shot. If this can be done great! Then we need to push for some lenses. I am dismayed that yet again Leica seem to be ignoring: > The need for super wide (12 / 15mm lenses) and a fisheye for LeicaM ....I would have thought that this is an ideal lens for a M ..more so than a SLR that has the issue of a mirror housing.that has to be traversed. > The need for Telephoto and macro lenses.. plus a 65mm which i would believe they need and a way of focussig and framing these. I can see that they apparently like 35mm Summilux type lenses, but really they should be talking 35mm Noctilux which is 50mm on a M8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted June 14, 2009 Share #166 Posted June 14, 2009 ...I thought this dead horse had been interred a couple of days ago. There are three reasons why this will not happen. 1. Physics, as eloquently explained by Giordano, above. 2. Economics - if Leica cannot make a viewfinder magnifier for less than two hundred quid, what would a Heath Robinson contraption like this cost? 3. Logic. Canute learned his lesson. Seems he was quick on the uptake. I dropped into a camera fair this morning. It was full of all sorts of weird and wonderful contraptions from years gone by to make photography "easier", "quicker". "better", or just "more fun". All had one thing in common. They had their dy, and were discontinued for very good reasons. Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted June 14, 2009 Share #167 Posted June 14, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) ...I thought this dead horse had been interred a couple of days ago. This one's like a plate of kippers. It'll keep repeating for quite a while. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted June 14, 2009 Share #168 Posted June 14, 2009 ...I thought this dead horse had been interred a couple of days ago. There are three reasons why this will not happen. 1. Physics, as eloquently explained by Giordano, above. 2. Economics - if Leica cannot make a viewfinder magnifier for less than two hundred quid, what would a Heath Robinson contraption like this cost? 3. Logic. Canute learned his lesson. Seems he was quick on the uptake. I dropped into a camera fair this morning. It was full of all sorts of weird and wonderful contraptions from years gone by to make photography "easier", "quicker". "better", or just "more fun". All had one thing in common. They had their dy, and were discontinued for very good reasons. Regards, Bill Let's be open minded: 1 Physics: Giordano is I believe looking at the full "R" range and this is what I discover Steve also has done. To be clear: > I agree completely that the Viso cannot take the full "R" range of lenses due to the mirror box dimensions. > Telephoto lenses of the Telyt old generation do work and could in future > Viso plus Bellows can take macro lenses or Leica lens elements that detach from their housing with the possible constraint that some of these cannot focus infinity. Bottom line lenses that are Telephoto such as telyt, or macro lenses do work on a Viso and a new gen Viso could do so also and allow the "M" camera capability span to be significantly extended. I agree that this is NOT as good as a SLR if this is all you plan to photograph, but if 80% of what you use a M for is what we all know and do. Buying a completely new system from Canon or Nikon for the 20% does not seem sensible. 2 Economics: Viewfinder at £200 to £300....this is pricing to value, nothing to do with costs. > If cost is the issue then Leicas problems are far more severe than even I thought. > I bet every time they sell such a viewfinder Leica management hug and kiss like footballers and punch the air, bells must ring throughout the Solms factory. > I'd guess it costs them £10 to make an item like this.....plus some portion of R&D / tooling cost that is very small Actually as I have said several times Leica could get smart and introduce a new Viso type unit for say £500 (ie cost to build) as a key differentiator to any competitor out there. They could then push back the boundaries of the M base into macro or closeup and separately Telehoto. 3 Logic If Leica do not recognise (with the demise of R10 ) that they have a hole in their offering compared to other mfgs that are SLR devotees I would be surprised. The S2 is a high risk strategy unless they can spin out the devts (IPR) into the "M" series where presumably the volume is for Leica. I do not know about Canute. However as you wish to be philosphical let me give you a definition for "MARKETING" : "It is the science of positioning "products or offerings" in a defined segment, differentiating these and causing them to occupy a commanding position and thereafter erecting defensible barriers against competition" Leica is known for its "M" camera and they would do well to consider the above definition: > They may want to strengthen their commanding position in the rangefinder market by widening the scope of what is on offer, while basing this on their strengths (Viso or EVF/ Live view perhaps?) > They would do well to erect defensible barriers against competition (35mm Noctilux, M9 full frame etc and addressing the obvious threat of Zeiss and Voiglander making 15mm lenses etcs) How else can Leica go forward now it is confirmed that there is no R10, they are NOT in the mid price SLR business anymore. I hope you and all other people that have disagreed with me now see things differently given the demise of R10.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted June 14, 2009 Share #169 Posted June 14, 2009 ...I hope you and all other people that have disagreed with me now see things differently given the demise of R10.. I hate to disappoint you, Frank, but I wasn't waiting with bated breath for an R10. I have an R7 and am perfectly happy with that. If I want to use my R glass on a DSLR I stick it on my Olympus. I will happily increase my "stock" of R glass without the promise of an R10, and certainly without the possibility of a time- and space-distorting Visoflex. Frankly, I am more likely to be convinced that Simon Cowell works in a soup kitchen than I am in your ludicrous concept. The more you argue it, the more cockamamie it sounds. People, amateurs and pros, me included, have SLRs and DSLRs. They use them for the applications you suggest, because it is EASIER and CHEAPER. Leica do not, and should not even try, to compete in every market segment. Porsche are not in the repmobile business either - I don't hear anyone telling them to bring out a Fiesta-beater. Back away from the keyboard... give it up. It isn't going to work. Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted June 14, 2009 Share #170 Posted June 14, 2009 I hate to disappoint you, Frank, but I wasn't waiting with bated breath for an R10. I have an R7 and am perfectly happy with that. If I want to use my R glass on a DSLR I stick it on my Olympus. I will happily increase my "stock" of R glass without the promise of an R10, and certainly without the possibility of a time- and space-distorting Visoflex. Frankly, I am more likely to be convinced that Simon Cowell works in a soup kitchen than I am in your ludicrous concept. The more you argue it, the more cockamamie it sounds. People, amateurs and pros, me included, have SLRs and DSLRs. They use them for the applications you suggest, because it is EASIER and CHEAPER. Leica do not, and should not even try, to compete in every market segment. Porsche are not in the repmobile business either - I don't hear anyone telling them to bring out a Fiesta-beater. Back away from the keyboard... give it up. It isn't going to work. Regards, Bill How do you take photos digitally with your R7 .... > Do you continue to use film? Wait for them to be developed and then scan them? Is this what people mean when they talk about excellent workflow with a Leica? > Hopefully not everyone thinks like you are doing "I" do this "I" do that "I" am happy with what I have......it is not the issue being addressed by me at least. The issue is what does the new CEO have to do at Leica to keep the company viable, and healthy enough to grow and give us new capabilities (eg new lenses etc) > The R7 and "R" lenses are fabulous...so are the old "M" lenses and the M4, M5, M6 ...just look at any of the Leica photo books and see what was possible or look at Ansel Adams etc works of photography....I would never knock this. > Do not tell me that buying a complete DIGITAL SLR plus the required lenses is a CHEAP way forward for Macro and Tele photography if you own a M8 and a bunch of lenses ...it is not, nor is it giving Leica quality optics.. As for the Porsche example dont even go there ...they have suucssefully supported a 911 design, evolved it to water cooled variants, modified it as a cabriolet, and offer skiracks for the thing while keeping the overall style the same. Leica should do the same EVOLUTIONARY process as it clearly works....while avoiding gimmicks or needless addons (Wifi module, Video capability, Audio with built in Mic..etc) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dewittehd Posted June 14, 2009 Share #171 Posted June 14, 2009 @admin This dead horse really starts smelling....... Is there any way you can redirect Frank's mails to Solms?? :-) Jean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted June 14, 2009 Share #172 Posted June 14, 2009 > Do not tell me that buying a complete DIGITAL SLR plus the required lenses is a CHEAP way forward for Macro and Tele photography if you own a M8 and a bunch of lenses ...it is not, nor is it giving Leica quality optics Most people who own an 'M8 and a bunch of lenses' won't have anything they can use with your new Visioflex, so they'll have to buy new lenses - newly designed ones or old Visioflex lenses. How often do you see Visioflex lenses on the used market? I've just checked with Ffordes and they have none for sale. Any new lenses will be expensive - or do you propose that Leica also sell them at cost as you proposed they do with the Visioflex earlier? On the other hand, if you want Leica glass and cheap, you buy a Canon 1000D - £400, a Canon to R adaptor - say £20, and a Leica 28mm Elmarit - say £200 used, or a 180mm Leica R lens - say £300. That's £600-700 in total. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted June 14, 2009 Share #173 Posted June 14, 2009 Is there any way you can redirect Frank's mails to Solms??:-) He's waiting for the Leica CEO call him back to discuss the matter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giordano Posted June 14, 2009 Share #174 Posted June 14, 2009 Let's be open minded:1 Physics: Giordano is I believe looking at the full "R" range and this is what I discover Steve also has done. No. In this and previous posts I've concentrated on the physical constraints on the size of a nouveau Viso and the implications of what you have said about what it should do. To be clear: > I agree completely that the Viso cannot take the full "R" range of lenses due to the mirror box dimensions. You previously agreed that for any R lens to fit a Viso it would have to be given a shorter mount - in other words that the Viso cannot take any R lens. <snip> 2 Economics:Viewfinder at £200 to £300....this is pricing to value, nothing to do with costs. > If cost is the issue then Leicas problems are far more severe than even I thought. > I bet every time they sell such a viewfinder Leica management hug and kiss like footballers and punch the air, bells must ring throughout the Solms factory. > I'd guess it costs them £10 to make an item like this.....plus some portion of R&D / tooling cost that is very small. Actually as I have said several times Leica could get smart and introduce a new Viso type unit for say £500 (ie cost to build) as a key differentiator to any competitor out there. If they could build it for £500 it would retail for two or three times that (sunk costs, overheads, profits, taxes...). So the lucky M9 owner would have the choice 1) buy nouveau Viso and a couple of Telyts 2) buy Nikon D700 and a couple of Nikkors for a lower cost. I do not know about Canute. An essential ability of a good CEO is knowing when to ignore reality and demand something better. Canute knew that an essential ability of a great CEO is not picking battles that reality will win. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted June 14, 2009 Share #175 Posted June 14, 2009 How do you take photos digitally with your R7 .... Bless. > Do you continue to use film? Wait for them to be developed and then scan them? Is this what people mean when they talk about excellent workflow with a Leica? Yes I do. We do not all believe that fastest is best. I bet you stand in front of a microwave shouting "HURRY!!" As a matter of interest, which people "talk about excellent workflow with a Leica"? Please can you point me to them? The issue is what does the new CEO have to do at Leica to keep the company viable, and healthy enough to grow and give us new capabilities (eg new lenses etc) And I am sure that when he wants our advice he will ask for it. > The R7 and "R" lenses are fabulous...so are the old "M" lenses and the M4, M5, M6 ...just look at any of the Leica photo books and see what was possible or look at Ansel Adams etc works of photography....I would never knock this. Yes, that's why I use them. But what on Earth has Adams and his stultifyingly boring outputs got to do with Leica? > Do not tell me that buying a complete DIGITAL SLR plus the required lenses is a CHEAP way forward for Macro and Tele photography if you own a M8 and a bunch of lenses ...it is not, nor is it giving Leica quality optics.. Yes it is. And that is where we part company. I now see the flaw in your logic. We do not all worship at the altar of the M8. The M8 is a fine camera, but I neither have one, nor do I regard it as the answer to a maiden's prayer. You are new here, so you won't know, but I am one of many who right from the start regarded the M8 as too flawed, too compromised, to be worth owning and have said so, clearly and without rancour. I wait with patient interest for a full-frame M, and have watched many fine photographers return to film in the meantime. The Porsche analogy was lost on you so I will not bother to respond on that one. Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted June 14, 2009 Share #176 Posted June 14, 2009 An essential ability of a good CEO is knowing when to ignore reality and demand something better. Canute knew that an essential ability of a great CEO is not picking battles that reality will win. Someone got it then... Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craftsman Posted June 14, 2009 Share #177 Posted June 14, 2009 I guess it's no real surprise that those with the most disdain and negative criticism for the OP;s ideas are the ones who have stuck with the thread for 174 + posts. I find that some people just can't get enough of telling you how completely wrong you are. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted June 14, 2009 Share #178 Posted June 14, 2009 ...I find that some people just can't get enough of telling you how completely wrong you are. That's how forums work. They enable discussion and debate. If you look at Frank's posts I think you'll find they are all more or less all on the same subject. Now you could say that Frank can't get enough of telling us how completely right he is, but that doesn't bother me. He's allowed to state his position, and I'm allowed to state mine. If it turns personal then the mods step in. So far I see disagreement, that's allowed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted June 14, 2009 Share #179 Posted June 14, 2009 That's how forums work. They enable discussion and debate. If you look at Frank's posts I think you'll find they are all more or less all on the same subject. Now you could say that Frank can't get enough of telling us how completely right he is, but that doesn't bother me. He's allowed to state his position, and I'm allowed to state mine. If it turns personal then the mods step in. So far I see disagreement, that's allowed. Quite. Moderation here is with a light touch, but unfailingly fair. You wouldn't want the thought-police approach operated at RFF would you? Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craftsman Posted June 14, 2009 Share #180 Posted June 14, 2009 Seems pretty one sided to me. Can't really say that I see a discussion here. Frank presents the idea and his logic to defend it. Replies with derision, and insults and every possible reason why its' the most ridiculous thing ever posted. Am I missing something? In fairness there are a few posters to this thread that haven't been insulting. Bill you might want to take the Gentleman out and just use the Amateur and Leica Lout. Just a suggestion Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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