Guest BigSplash Posted June 15, 2009 Share #201 Posted June 15, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) What a thread! Frank, you certainly are tenacious, I'll give you that. That's exactly what I do. No digital camera will ever give me Kodachrome or Velvia slides, which collectively I shoot at the rate of about 20-30 rolls per month with Leica M and R cameras. I'm not in the market for digital. My photos are the return on investment. I don't worry about the resale value of my kit. There's plenty of Visoflex gear on the shelves of shops here in Tokyo, and there it sits. Not much demand for a concept that's had its day. And for closeups, what about the 90 macro? Pretty ingenious solution, no? That's my 2 yen, for what it's worth. I can relate to what you are doing as making sense. I believe that the quality of a 35mm film or better slide is still better than Digital M8 ( I have not seen the side by side technical comparison or as see in real life projection, but intuitively you are probably right!) Shooting 20 to 30 rolls per month ( 1000 shots per month) sounds expensive, and I guess is time consuming unless you have a pro lab supporting you which I do not. In S.France it takes 2 weeks now to process a slide film and 1 week for colour film...Worse the devt quality does not do justice to the film stock and camera / lenses unless you identify a full pro lab. and pay the price. Accessing pro film (kept in a fridge) for highest quality work is also very difficult, although not impossible. Personally I would just go with digital and be able to belt off 500+ raw pictures on one high speed 4Gg memory chip before changing it. My personal view is that digital is already good enough, and is the future. The issue for Leica is how do they ride the wave with a M digital camera that can only take wide to 90mm shots. ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 15, 2009 Posted June 15, 2009 Hi Guest BigSplash, Take a look here Challenges for new Leica CEO. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
stunsworth Posted June 15, 2009 Share #202 Posted June 15, 2009 The issue for Leica is how do they ride the wave with a M digital camera that can only take wide to 90mm shots. ? 135mm actually, which gives you an angle of view equivalent to approx. 180mm on a full frame 35mm camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted June 15, 2009 Share #203 Posted June 15, 2009 The core challenge for Leica is how to do this while remaining faithful to its principles and maintaining market appeal. I agree so if you do NOT like the new Viso idea, then consider the following, and advise what you would like to see leica management do: > TODAY Leica M8. M8.2 and maybe a M8.3 or M9(full frame?) ...Leica principle is that they make the No1 rangefinder in the world, have a great brand and a loyal following. > This is good for wide angle thru to 18mm ( actually 21mm in reality) to 90mm > They have 50mm (75mm in reality) Noctilux that currently they cannot make in production.. and it has a £6000 price tag, plus many forum members are critical about Leica performance in low light photography that I had believed they were No1. > Forum members list a host of failings on M8 > TODAY No "R" camera, nor lenses, and an irate client base because it has been dropped. Some hope (not explained) that old "R" lenses can be used somehow > S2 in the future with a huge price tag, entering a new market segment that they will have to develop, position themselves, and then dominate. The dealers did not know last week about R10 and were either living in denial or were kept in the dark holding a belief that R10 was coming! I phoned my UK dealer today and he still is unaware and was shocked and did not believe.......Maybe Leica could improve how they do product announcements? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted June 15, 2009 Share #204 Posted June 15, 2009 135mm actually, which gives you an angle of view equivalent to approx. 180mm on a full frame 35mm camera. Technically you are correct and I have done it too. That said i read so much about the poor viewfinder on M8, especially I guess for 135mm....Actually even on my M4,5,6 focussing and framing with the 135mm was never easy. I believe that Leica have special magnifying viewfinder clip on....but then you guys are not fans of clipping things onto the nice clean lines of the "M".... In real terms focussing and framing a 135 / 200mm without SLR is a mess ...I am sure you agree. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted June 15, 2009 Share #205 Posted June 15, 2009 I agree so if you do NOT like the new Viso idea, then consider the following, and advise what you would like to see leica management do: Introduce a new M8.3 with the same crop factor as the M8.2 but use an improved sensor with lower noise at high ISOs and if possible faster electronics - timescale, in the next six months. Introduce an M9 with a full frame sensor and if possible with a solution for the IR issues - timescale 18 months. With the introduction of the M9 retain the M8.3 but lower the price so that it becomes an entry level camera. Still expensive of course, but cheaper than the full frame version. Compact cameras, continue the relationship with Panasonic as it's brought in a large revenue stream. Continue to cherry pick the best models to provide the rebadged Leica models. Ensure they are marketed in a way to differentiate them from the Panasonic equivalent. S2, ensure it is as close to 100% reliable as possible. Establish a credible pro network to offer the expected level of service. Offer bodies for lease (obviously) and rent. Ensure there is enough equipment in the rental sector. Sports optics, a big big source of revenue, but I know bugger all about them so can't suggest anything. There, that's my armchair CEOing over for the day. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted June 15, 2009 Share #206 Posted June 15, 2009 It must have been said before somewhere in the depths or this or the other threads Frank has started, but isn't the answer the G1? Stick your M/R lenses onto that if you really need/want accurate macro or telephoto capability, and benefit from the 2x crop factor. This is the 'hobbyist' solution of course, assuming they don't own an SLR system, and any pro will have the appropriate kit for the job. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted June 15, 2009 Share #207 Posted June 15, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Technically you are correct and I have done it too. That said i read so much about the poor viewfinder on M8, especially I guess for 135mm....Actually even on my M4,5,6 focussing and framing with the 135mm was never easy The only 135mm that the M8 officially supports is the goggled f2.8 one. This brings up the 90mm framelines. I have a magnifier that I bought to use with the 75mm Summicron, but it's a pain to use as I also use a diaptor and that has to be removed before the magnifier can be fitted. The dioptor then has to be screwed into the magnifier, so I very rarely use it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 15, 2009 Share #208 Posted June 15, 2009 Technically you are correct and I have done it too. That said i read so much about the poor viewfinder on M8, especially I guess for 135mm....Actually even on . I think many of us have proved that it is quite possible to get consistently well-focussed shots on the M8 with a 135, so maybe you mean poor eyesight or poor technique - or maybe just a bit of lack of practice? There has been many a false note played on a Stradivarius. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted June 15, 2009 Share #209 Posted June 15, 2009 Introduce a new M8.3 with the same crop factor as the M8.2 but use an improved sensor with lower noise at high ISOs and if possible faster electronics - timescale, in the next six months. Introduce an M9 with a full frame sensor and if possible with a solution for the IR issues - timescale 18 months. With the introduction of the M9 retain the M8.3 but lower the price so that it becomes an entry level camera. Still expensive of course, but cheaper than the full frame version. Compact cameras, continue the relationship with Panasonic as it's brought in a large revenue stream. Continue to cherry pick the best models to provide the rebadged Leica models. Ensure they are marketed in a way to differentiate them from the Panasonic equivalent. S2, ensure it is as close to 100% reliable as possible. Establish a credible pro network to offer the expected level of service. Offer bodies for lease (obviously) and rent. Ensure there is enough equipment in the rental sector. Sports optics, a big big source of revenue, but I know bugger all about them so can't suggest anything. There, that's my armchair CEOing over for the day. I think you suggestion makes good logical sense I believe, and see myself agreeing with it.... I am sure I shall regret this but look at the guestimate that I have set out below. I have tried to interpret what this could drive in revenues with a view to seeing what they need to focus as a business, now that "R10" has died. Pro Market ( 30% of total photo business of Leica?) M9 (full frame).............................................................medium volumes M Lenses (18mm to 90mm standard types )...................medium volumes M Lenses (Tri Elmar, and Noctilux expensive types).........low volumes S2 body*........................................................................v. low volumes S2 lenses.*....................................................................lv. ow volumes * Heavy R&D cost, and very heavy marketing and after sales support cost ..means tough profitability, or even a loss initially. Remember it takes 10X competitor No1 revenues to dislodge them! Digital Pradovit DLP*** projector (£8K)..................................v. low volumes ***Low R&D ...probably made by Sim2 or Infocus or??? (my guess). High margin if they can sell it. Difficult route to market (ie not via Leica retailers?) Amateur Market (70% of total photo business of Leica?) M8.3 (entry level model).................................................high volumes M9 (full frame)..............................................................low - medium volumes M Lenses (18mm to 90mm standard types )...................high volumes M Lenses (Tri Elmar, expensive types)............................low - medium volumes M Lenses (Noctilux expensive types)..............................low volumes R cameras & lenses & accessories ................................NONE S2 system.....................................................................NONE Panasonic Cameras** ......................................................high volumes ** Low R&D, Low margin shared with Panasonic...short product lifecycle If the above rough analysis is flawed or plain wrong let me know. If it is right then Leica needs to figure out how it levers more revenue within the "M" amateur market and that means widening the capability to macro and telephoto unless you can see an alternative? somehow.... Also you need to make a rangefinder more attractive to amateurs as today vis a vis the SLR it is not accepted. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted June 15, 2009 Share #210 Posted June 15, 2009 It must have been said before somewhere in the depths or this or the other threads Frank has started, but isn't the answer the G1? Stick your M/R lenses onto that if you really need/want accurate macro or telephoto capability, and benefit from the 2x crop factor. This is the 'hobbyist' solution of course, assuming they don't own an SLR system, and any pro will have the appropriate kit for the job. what is a G1...I am not aware? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted June 15, 2009 Share #211 Posted June 15, 2009 what is a G1...I am not aware? Panasonic Lumix DMC-G1 Review: 1. Introduction: Digital Photography Review http://www.dpreview.com/news/0905/09052101panasonicadaptors.asp Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted June 15, 2009 Share #212 Posted June 15, 2009 Frank, I'm surprised at your lack of knowledge or 'market research' given your very strong views on what Leica should/shouldn't be doing. You aren't aware of the other options on the market, the history of Leica (what's a llD?) or the fact that many many photographers prefer to use film, and Leica surely want to cater for their film M users at the same time as developing their digital M solutions further. Get your skipper to take you out on your yacht, get the crew to make you a nice lunch, and ponder these points. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted June 15, 2009 Share #213 Posted June 15, 2009 Frank, I'm surprised at your lack of knowledge or 'market research' given your very strong views on what Leica should/shouldn't be doing. You aren't aware of the other options on the market, the history of Leica (what's a llD?) or the fact that many many photographers prefer to use film, and Leica surely want to cater for their film M users at the same time as developing their digital M solutions further. Get your skipper to take you out on your yacht, get the crew to make you a nice lunch, and ponder these points. Thanks for this ...very helpful, that's why I joined the forum so that I can learn from experienced people like you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted June 15, 2009 Share #214 Posted June 15, 2009 I just had a very long call with Stefan Daniel and discussed my pet subjects. He was very open and helpful, but he did ask me to be "reserved" in giving total feedback as announcements are planned in the near future etc.....I have agreed what I can say here and respect his open honest approach. 1 He feels that SLR's are being overtaken by the new technologies such as a EVF with features that allow pin prick focussing for example. He thinks that this is the way forward for all camera Mfgs over the next 3-5 years. This new tech. would also avoid the need for a new gen Viso. which is fine by me if I can do Macro etc using new technology. 2 He fully understands that Leica needs to address two markets that Leica does not support today: > Macro and close up photography. > Telephoto Lenses (200mm upwards) 3) He did not specifically say it but I was left with the impression that Leica M?? is the future building block to do Macro, and Telephoto...possibly with some add on device, or using the rear screen. 4) I asked if the strategy was to accommodate just the old "R" lenses or did they recognise a need to attract new users to a Leica"M" rangefinder based product roadmap. > He is fully aware that there is an opportunity and need to extend the M capability to Macro / Telephoto and consequently nail detractors of a range finder camera. It is key for them he said > The old "R" lenses will be "Looked after" for the most part, but they definitely intend to bring out NEW lenses that will do Macro ( he mentioned as an example 65mm Elmar of the kind of item needed), and the telephotos lenses. 5) I discussed the belief that Leica viewfinder clipons are very expensive, and if you buy the lens you are kind of forced to buy the viewfinder at the price demanded by Leica. This was pricing to value I said and I understand that very well! > He said they are expensive to make but also agreed they do make good profit on these items! > I suggested that whatever they do to achieve focussing and framing for Macro / Telephoto in the future he should try to make the delta price as low as possible .....He saw the point and said that such a strategy does make a lot of sense. 6) I told him that Leica dealers seem to know less than the forum members (this weekend announcements re "R10") and it would be good to make specific announcements to dealers and others asap...He agreed and did say he felt it difficult to be open with 100 users at Solms and the w/wide community of retailers also in what is a fast moving activity for Leica. 7) I asked about Mayfair and how that fits with a strong motivated, loyal dealer base that is ready to invest. > He quoted Berlin, Tokyo as factory owned outlets that work very well in collab. with the dealers. They are a success story. > The boutique in Paris is privately owned but has similar principles. > He sees Mayfair as having the total range, offering expert advice and hosting training sessions on the camera usage. 8) He did say that he was aware of the threads that I started and read the inputs with considerable interest....He saw the debate as useful and my needs as in line completely with what they are doing, which pleased me and I believe it also. He also said that having 100 users at Solms this weekend was excellent opportunity for him to get feedback. I am sure it was. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted June 15, 2009 Share #215 Posted June 15, 2009 Are you satisfied with these answers? Did you not feel the need to press for further details which you have asked for in your threads (exactly how will the Leica UK shop co-exist with the existing dealers, competative advantages etc), and you seem very willing to drop your idea of a new Visoflex all of a sudden - you haven't explained how your problems will be addressed by the next M camera at all. Indeed the macro/tele issues are most likely to be addressed by the new 'EVIL' offering if/when it comes to market, and the S2. I'm surprised that you 'gave in' so easily. Basically there is nothing from your conversation that we don't already know, but at least you can stop the constant arguments in favour of a new Visoflex. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted June 15, 2009 Share #216 Posted June 15, 2009 Are you satisfied with these answers? Did you not feel the need to press for further details which you have asked for in your threads (exactly how will the Leica UK shop co-exist with the existing dealers, competative advantages etc), and you seem very willing to drop your idea of a new Visoflex all of a sudden - you haven't explained how your problems will be addressed by the next M camera at all. Indeed the macro/tele issues are most likely to be addressed by the new 'EVIL' offering if/when it comes to market, and the S2. I'm surprised that you 'gave in' so easily. Basically there is nothing from your conversation that we don't already know, but at least you can stop the constant arguments in favour of a new Visoflex. I am satisfied with the details I received as it would be very naive to believe that they would preannounce, or give me detailed information how they plan to implement each of the items. I only wanted to put the case of what a new uncommitted camera buyer would want to see, and indeed my own needs.....there was definite resonance, and agreement of the need etc. and I am happy they are addressing this. I have not always seen logical thought within the threads, so Leica Mgmt seem to actually be living in the real world. I did not hear for example some choice feedback from the threads: > You should by implication stay with analogue (film), and the M8 is so bad I would never buy one (Bill) > Buy an adapter get some secondhand "R" lenses and go for a DSLR back from Canon (several people suggested this). You mention the Visoflex......I think I made it clear that I was never after the old clunky unit. I was after a new tech mirror housing or some alternative way of doing it. During the last 40 years we have gone from the Viscount aircarft thru Concorde and the A380 so I would be the first to believe that leica would find a solution using technology as an enabler. They seem to believe that theyhave found a way forward that does not require a mirror housing and the technology is so good that in time it will obsolete SLR's in the same way that CRT based TV's have gone away or VHS recorders are now HDD, and the LP has given way to Cd or itunes. It happens and I am OK with that. Stefan said he would contact Richard Swann (sales mgr UK) and the UK CEO to express the points about Mayfair sales outlet. I have always been positive to a UK Leica factory sales facility where i can see all the kit, fondle it and get expert advice. However I also value a 30 year relationship with my dealer. I did mention: > Major London Store where they had no idea what they were selling, put a cheap low speed memory card in the M8 and then complained about the performance > Concern about who gets what when products are in short supply (eg Noctilux) ...the UK store or existing retailers. > Grey imports, and discounting...vis a vis B&O model. I would not expect Leica to comment on these issues, it is for them to listen and fix internally. What is EVIL......I did not discuss and have no idea what it is. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnastovall Posted June 15, 2009 Share #217 Posted June 15, 2009 EVIL = Electronic Viewfinder with Interchangeable Lenses Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted June 15, 2009 Share #218 Posted June 15, 2009 What is EVIL......I did not discuss and have no idea what it is. Well thank you for clarifying. EVIL - Electronic Viewfinder Interchangeable Lenses - the platform which has been mentioned to Jaap this weekend for the 'R solution'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted June 15, 2009 Share #219 Posted June 15, 2009 Stefan Daniel must have the patience of a Saint but was at least rewarded with that sweetest of sounds - of Frank hanging up... He deserves a medal. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJP Posted June 15, 2009 Share #220 Posted June 15, 2009 We could send him a cake:D Also I would like to note that live view (and/or EVIL) was proposed by a few of us (including myself), but I guess hearing it from the Leica itself is more convincing. Frank is on the verge of becoming an Erfarener Benutzer, congratulations! This must be a speed record. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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