stunsworth Posted June 10, 2009 Share #81 Posted June 10, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) f) Amen! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 10, 2009 Posted June 10, 2009 Hi stunsworth, Take a look here Challenges for new Leica CEO. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
andybarton Posted June 10, 2009 Share #82 Posted June 10, 2009 The Visoflex system was alweays a kludge to make the M into a reflex camera. Nowadays we have lots of good reflex cameras, including the R10, which will be here next year. Leica don't need a new Visoflex. Leica are also very clear about their road-map. The S2 will be here in September. They have also confirmed that they are working on the R10 (or whatever they choose to call it - S1?), and that is likely to be here next year (1st half?). An M9 will also be along within the next 12 months, I'm sure, but may or may not be full frame. It will be more expensive than an M8.2, that can be counted upon. I expect that they will continue to offer the M8.2 alongside the M9, at least until the stocks are exhausted - the £500 cash back offer is likely to be moved to the M8.2 from the M8, stocks of which are now likely now be getting short. New lenses such as the Noctilux are in short supply because of both a pent up demand, and some technical issues that they have now solved. The Noctilux production will not affect the S2 production at all. The R system is dead as it has been known for the last couple of decades. They stopped making R9s a couple of years ago (at least) and have had the fire sale at SHPhoto in order to clear the last of the inventory. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted June 10, 2009 Share #83 Posted June 10, 2009 You can use a Visioflex on an M8. How many people do? A handful I'd guess. Maybe, just maybe, there isn't a demand for it, and that's why Leica don't currently make one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted June 10, 2009 Share #84 Posted June 10, 2009 M9: £4000 to £5000??? Yes, and pigs might fly. I think £6500 will be closer to the mark. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted June 10, 2009 Share #85 Posted June 10, 2009 £4995 is my guess Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 10, 2009 Share #86 Posted June 10, 2009 I'm convinced the price will be similar to the current M8.2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted June 10, 2009 Share #87 Posted June 10, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) I do not know what EVF is (nor OP by the way), nor exactly what you mean by "live view". OP - Original Post (yours.) "Live View" is when the camera has the ability to show a real time image on the back LCD, on an external monitor or on an accessory viewfinder. Most DSLR and smaller digital cameras have this ability. Many p&s cameras only work this way and have no other viewfinder. On an SLR, the mirror has to be raised first. You can view the LCD with both eyes. Some LCDs have decent resolution and pretty good color. EVF - Electronic View Finder. This functions like live view but is a small viewfinder covered by a magnifier that you place your eye up to much as you would with any optical viewfinder. A clip on one could be quite small as Ricoh has demonstrated with the GX200. Panasonic has worked out a way to have a high refresh rate for each color channel and improve the apparent resolution on the EVF of the G-1 and GH-1 cameras. A clip-on EVF is something that could be upgraded over time as technology improves. With live view on the camera's LCD and with an EVF, the live image can be magnified to judge focus. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted June 10, 2009 Share #88 Posted June 10, 2009 The Visoflex system was alweays a kludge to make the M into a reflex camera..............[uNQUOTE] I agree it was.....That said please note: 1) The Visoflex was introduced over 40 years ago, and was mostly used on early M cameras. We now have a DIGITAL M8 !!!! 2) The technology of today has advanced somewhatin terms of electronics, LCD panels, software, CAD tools, metallurgy, optics, sensor technolgy etc etc...Surely this could open new ways of doing things? 3) Why assume that the Visoflex III should be the basis of a new generation Viso? 4) Why assume that the M8 body should have the same shape of a M9 full frame unit. Starting with the premise that the future of the"M" series as a system must conform to 40 year old technology is in my view too constraining. Surely what we the "M" user community really want is: > A rangefinder camera unit that uses existing M lenses (Full frame) > New Wide Angle lenses (12 & 15mm) and fisheye > Option to do Macro photography with bellows > Ability to use long telephoto Lenses...ideally both old and new > Latest technology deployed to achieve a system Nowadays we have lots of good reflex cameras, including the R10, which will be here next year. Leica don't need a new Visoflex. [uNQUOTE] Great news about the R10 and simplistically I have to agree with you. I am interested to buy into the "R" concept to compliment my "M8" kit ....My Leica dealer frankly cannot answer some basic questions however. Maybe you can help me and let me know what has been confimed about the following concerns that I have before i buy a "R" kit via SHPhoto: > "When" next year are people other than Eric Clapton likely to get delivery of an "R10"?" (ie Me!!) > When can I place an order for an R10 and when will the final specification be available? > Is it a fullframe digital unit that will accept all existing "R" lenses....(ie Can I buy some heavily discounted lenses from SH photo now and be sure that they will work with a digital R10 in full frame? This is exactly what I have in mind!) > What is the price of the future full frame digital R10....£4K (like M8.2) or ...£17K as I hear is the target price for the S2? > Is Leica committed after "R" digital relaunch to bring out new lenses for the "R" and will these be backward compatible to the existing analogue "R"? ... > Which are deemed to be the missing "R" items that will be addressed? (eg Bellows?) > Will the new "R" be watertight sealed ...if so "Why buy a S2?" In my view the answer to these questions are key if we are to have confidence in the Leica way forward and buy kit now. Leica are also very clear about their road-map. The S2 will be here in September. They have also confirmed that they are working on the R10 (or whatever they choose to call it - S1?), and that is likely to be here next year (1st half?). An M9 will also be along within the next 12 months, I'm sure, but may or may not be full frame. It will be more expensive than an M8.2, that can be counted upon. I expect that they will continue to offer the M8.2 alongside the M9, at least until the stocks are exhausted - the £500 cash back offer is likely to be moved to the M8.2 from the M8, stocks of which are now likely now be getting short. [uNQUOTE] Again I question what we are being told...and therefore the viability of Leica as a company supplying those products that it has been famous for. I ask: 1) If the M9 is not full frame ...why would anyone want it compared to the M8.2? What special features will the M9 have? ...nothing is clear or demaded by users! (OK maybe watertight lens fitting!) 2) If the M8.2 is the future and M8 is to be dropped as you seem to suggest. I am surprised. Does the saphire screen represent something worthwhile and is worth £1.5K extra ? .....the noiseless shutter is nice to have I guess but now the latest software has discrete mode I wonder how important this is? 3) Consequently if you are correct M8 stocks getting short (means M8 is being phased out!) suggests that the future entry level body is £4K for an M8.2. It also supports a belief that the M9 will be priced at above £6K for a full frame and if it is not full frame what added features are likely to be offered that could command the higher price? Actually my dealer echos all of the above concerns and I became convinced that it was NOW that I needed to buy my M8...in just a few months it is likely that the entry level M digital will cost much more for the above reasons, unless they phase out M8.2 and keep M8. ...which makes sense to me as a reasonable strategy OK several people have repeatedly suggested in this thread that the M digital, and R digital strategy is very clear and well communicated .. ....Personally I think : > Leica "M" and "R" and "S" strategy is not clear at all and has questions all over it. > Leica seem to have pinned enormous "hope" on the "S" , I hope that this is well founded. However as Harvard Business School have researched it takes 10x investment of your "entrenched" competitors current revenues to penetrate their market.....sounds like a lot of money to invest to go after Hasselblad or Mamiya, or Bronica? > The Leica stratgey is BAD as it does not seem to protect currentl Leica owners investment, and it is not obvious why new clients would go Leica. > The Leica strategy is WORSE as it does not seem to lever Leica's history, obvious strengths, and existing technology differentiators that they have built up over the years that colud realise an offering that makes sense at a system level offering New lenses such as the Noctilux are in short supply because of both a pent up demand, and some technical issues that they have now solved. The Noctilux production will not affect the S2 production at all. The R system is dead as it has been known for the last couple of decades. They stopped making R9s a couple of years ago (at least) and have had the fire sale at SHPhoto in order to clear the last of the inventory Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
offshore Posted June 10, 2009 Share #89 Posted June 10, 2009 The Visoflex system was alweays a kludge to make the M into a reflex camera..............[uNQUOTE] I agree it was.....That said please note: 1) The Visoflex was introduced over 40 years ago, and was mostly used on early M cameras. We now have a DIGITAL M8 !!!! 2) The technology of today has advanced somewhatin terms of electronics, LCD panels, software, CAD tools, metallurgy, optics, sensor technolgy etc etc...Surely this could open new ways of doing things? 3) Why assume that the Visoflex III should be the basis of a new generation Viso? 4) Why assume that the M8 body should have the same shape of a M9 full frame unit. Starting with the premise that the future of the"M" series as a system must conform to 40 year old technology is in my view too constraining. Surely what we the "M" user community really want is: > A rangefinder camera unit that uses existing M lenses (Full frame) > New Wide Angle lenses (12 & 15mm) and fisheye > Option to do Macro photography with bellows > Ability to use long telephoto Lenses...ideally both old and new > Latest technology deployed to achieve a system Nowadays we have lots of good reflex cameras, including the R10, which will be here next year. Leica don't need a new Visoflex. [uNQUOTE] Great news about the R10 and simplistically I have to agree with you. I am interested to buy into the "R" concept to compliment my "M8" kit ....My Leica dealer frankly cannot answer some basic questions however. Maybe you can help me and let me know what has been confimed about the following concerns that I have before i buy a "R" kit via SHPhoto: > "When" next year are people other than Eric Clapton likely to get delivery of an "R10"?" (ie Me!!) > When can I place an order for an R10 and when will the final specification be available? > Is it a fullframe digital unit that will accept all existing "R" lenses....(ie Can I buy some heavily discounted lenses from SH photo now and be sure that they will work with a digital R10 in full frame? This is exactly what I have in mind!) > What is the price of the future full frame digital R10....£4K (like M8.2) or ...£17K as I hear is the target price for the S2? > Is Leica committed after "R" digital relaunch to bring out new lenses for the "R" and will these be backward compatible to the existing analogue "R"? ... > Which are deemed to be the missing "R" items that will be addressed? (eg Bellows?) > Will the new "R" be watertight sealed ...if so "Why buy a S2?" In my view the answer to these questions are key if we are to have confidence in the Leica way forward and buy kit now. Leica are also very clear about their road-map. The S2 will be here in September. They have also confirmed that they are working on the R10 (or whatever they choose to call it - S1?), and that is likely to be here next year (1st half?). An M9 will also be along within the next 12 months, I'm sure, but may or may not be full frame. It will be more expensive than an M8.2, that can be counted upon. I expect that they will continue to offer the M8.2 alongside the M9, at least until the stocks are exhausted - the £500 cash back offer is likely to be moved to the M8.2 from the M8, stocks of which are now likely now be getting short. [uNQUOTE] Again I question what we are being told...and therefore the viability of Leica as a company supplying those products that it has been famous for. I ask: 1) If the M9 is not full frame ...why would anyone want it compared to the M8.2? What special features will the M9 have? ...nothing is clear or demaded by users! (OK maybe watertight lens fitting!) 2) If the M8.2 is the future and M8 is to be dropped as you seem to suggest. I am surprised. Does the saphire screen represent something worthwhile and is worth £1.5K extra ? .....the noiseless shutter is nice to have I guess but now the latest software has discrete mode I wonder how important this is? 3) Consequently if you are correct M8 stocks getting short (means M8 is being phased out!) suggests that the future entry level body is £4K for an M8.2. It also supports a belief that the M9 will be priced at above £6K for a full frame and if it is not full frame what added features are likely to be offered that could command the higher price? Actually my dealer echos all of the above concerns and I became convinced that it was NOW that I needed to buy my M8...in just a few months it is likely that the entry level M digital will cost much more for the above reasons, unless they phase out M8.2 and keep M8. ...which makes sense to me as a reasonable strategy OK several people have repeatedly suggested in this thread that the M digital, and R digital strategy is very clear and well communicated .. ....Personally I think : > Leica "M" and "R" and "S" strategy is not clear at all and has questions all over it. > Leica seem to have pinned enormous "hope" on the "S" , I hope that this is well founded. However as Harvard Business School have researched it takes 10x investment of your "entrenched" competitors current revenues to penetrate their market.....sounds like a lot of money to invest to go after Hasselblad or Mamiya, or Bronica? > The Leica stratgey is BAD as it does not seem to protect currentl Leica owners investment, and it is not obvious why new clients would go Leica. > The Leica strategy is WORSE as it does not seem to lever Leica's history, obvious strengths, and existing technology differentiators that they have built up over the years that colud realise an offering that makes sense at a system level offering New lenses such as the Noctilux are in short supply because of both a pent up demand, and some technical issues that they have now solved. The Noctilux production will not affect the S2 production at all. The R system is dead as it has been known for the last couple of decades. They stopped making R9s a couple of years ago (at least) and have had the fire sale at SHPhoto in order to clear the last of the inventory Just out of curiosity are you currently unemployed? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted June 10, 2009 Share #90 Posted June 10, 2009 Zzzzzzzzz.... Surely what we the "M" user community really want is: ...zzzzzzzz *Sigh* Firstly, "The M user community" does not exist as an entity. The Leica User Forum only reflects the views of Leica users that: a. are Internet literate b. are aware of the Forum's existence c. are comfortable to communicate in either English or German d. are egocentric enough to think their opinions are of interest to others and e. have time on their hands. Secondly, the unrepresentaive, self-selected group that posts here cannot agree on what constitutes the "best" lens cleaning cloth let alone on what we really want from Leica in the future. Thirdly, no, personally I don't want all those things, and would resent anyone assuming or trying to represent that I do. I can only conclude from your posts that you have an inordinate amount of point e. Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted June 10, 2009 Share #91 Posted June 10, 2009 The Visoflex system was alweays a kludge to make the M into a reflex camera..............[uNQUOTE] I agree it was.....That said please note: 1) The Visoflex was introduced over 40 years ago, and was mostly used on early M cameras. We now have a DIGITAL M8 !!!! 2) The technology of today has advanced somewhatin terms of electronics, LCD panels, software, CAD tools, metallurgy, optics, sensor technolgy etc etc...Surely this could open new ways of doing things? 3) Why assume that the Visoflex III should be the basis of a new generation Viso? 4) Why assume that the M8 body should have the same shape of a M9 full frame unit. Starting with the premise that the future of the"M" series as a system must conform to 40 year old technology is in my view too constraining. Surely what we the "M" user community really want is: > A rangefinder camera unit that uses existing M lenses (Full frame) > New Wide Angle lenses (12 & 15mm) and fisheye > Option to do Macro photography with bellows > Ability to use long telephoto Lenses...ideally both old and new > Latest technology deployed to achieve a system Nowadays we have lots of good reflex cameras, including the R10, which will be here next year. Leica don't need a new Visoflex. [uNQUOTE] Great news about the R10 and simplistically I have to agree with you. I am interested to buy into the "R" concept to compliment my "M8" kit ....My Leica dealer frankly cannot answer some basic questions however. Maybe you can help me and let me know what has been confimed about the following concerns that I have before i buy a "R" kit via SHPhoto: > "When" next year are people other than Eric Clapton likely to get delivery of an "R10"?" (ie Me!!) > When can I place an order for an R10 and when will the final specification be available? > Is it a fullframe digital unit that will accept all existing "R" lenses....(ie Can I buy some heavily discounted lenses from SH photo now and be sure that they will work with a digital R10 in full frame? This is exactly what I have in mind!) > What is the price of the future full frame digital R10....£4K (like M8.2) or ...£17K as I hear is the target price for the S2? > Is Leica committed after "R" digital relaunch to bring out new lenses for the "R" and will these be backward compatible to the existing analogue "R"? ... > Which are deemed to be the missing "R" items that will be addressed? (eg Bellows?) > Will the new "R" be watertight sealed ...if so "Why buy a S2?" In my view the answer to these questions are key if we are to have confidence in the Leica way forward and buy kit now. Just out of curiosity are you currently unemployed? Actually no.....I have taken a week off as my daughter has just given birth, and I am minding the fort, while my wife is in Uk and I am in S.France. I am actually also working on two turnarounds that are coming to an end and have just separately built a marine computer (for high end sailing superyachts that want a Nav system and Media centre) This will go on my own yacht, plus I shall shortly commercialise this . I am now in discussions for my next turnaround in a medium sized high tech company as CEO. Thanks for the interest ...I guess you ask why am I making the effort and writing so much..a fair question! I am half German and have since 5 years old had a love affair with Leica, which I hold in enormous regard. I have gradually built my M system up and only last week bought an M8. I have a great desire for Leica to do the right thing and hence my deluge of postings here. That said I get the feeling that some people do not like me asking the questions I am doing and others have been pretty aggressive (my view) . A few people have thanked me and agree that the questions should be asked. Dont worry however if you feel I should not ask the difficult questions. I plan to stop writing shortly and get back to the day job when my wife return next week with our grandchild! Then I can do some Leica photos! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted June 10, 2009 Share #92 Posted June 10, 2009 Krell amps, expensive video projectors, a yacht. I don't think we've ever had so much personal information from anyone in such a short time before. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 10, 2009 Share #93 Posted June 10, 2009 Hey guys! Stop worrying. I am convinced Leica is further along the road than we think. Many of these questions will be asked of Leica this weekend, and maybe a tip of the veil will be lifted. I for one am certain they are on the right path. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 10, 2009 Share #94 Posted June 10, 2009 Krell amps, expensive video projectors, a yacht. I don't think we've ever had so much personal information from anyone in such a short time before. And such expensive information.. I wonder Frank envies me my photo gear. It can't cost more than a week's pocket money. But I like the compliment Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted June 10, 2009 Share #95 Posted June 10, 2009 *Sigh* Firstly, "The M user community" does not exist as an entity. The Leica User Forum only reflects the views of Leica users that: a. are Internet literate b. are aware of the Forum's existence c. are comfortable to communicate in either English or German d. are egocentric enough to think their opinions are of interest to others and e. have time on their hands. Secondly, the unrepresentaive, self-selected group that posts here cannot agree on what constitutes the "best" lens cleaning cloth let alone on what we really want from Leica in the future. Thirdly, no, personally I don't want all those things, and would resent anyone assuming or trying to represent that I do. I can only conclude from your posts that you have an inordinate amount of point e. Regards, Bill Bill : 1) There is no M community as you have to be internet literate And know of the Forum.... ...OK I am sure you are right. I guess these same users are Photoshop literate but cannot use the internet. Hmm! I also think that people that invest £3-4K in a DIGITAL camera and an extra £6k -£8K in lenses must be special individuals if they have no interest in the subjects discussed here. 2) The unrepresentative, self selected group here ....No comment 3) You say that you do not want the things I want. OK what do you want for the M system? Can I assume that you are happy with whatever you get from Leica? Point "e" ....Not sure what you mean here ..: > I guess you are trying to be aggressive rather than helpful ! Sorry if this is wrong. > You seem to, I presume know something about Leica M and have ideas of what you want to see but have not identified it here, or elsewhere in the thread. This is regretable and reminds me about how UK buyers and Us buyers accepted poorly made cars or very expensive hotel breakfasts in premium grade hotels in London! You get what you accept! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted June 10, 2009 Share #96 Posted June 10, 2009 Krell amps, expensive video projectors, a yacht. I don't think we've ever had so much personal information from anyone in such a short time before. Actually I am sure you are correct, but let's get it straight. I have been aggressed as follows: 1) Bang and Olufsen is a 2nd quality, cosmetically nice kit...not how Leica should go!. I mentioned Krell as agreement on actual audio performance. My point was about B&O sales channels ..their Boutiques and this has been ignored by all except one danish reader who agreed with me as he knows B&O clearly very well. 2) expensive video projectors...this I mentioned as I was at TI heavily involved in the DLP devt. that apparently is the future of Leica Pradovit.....except if you think my InFocus unit is expensive try Leica Pradovit at £8K+! 3) The yacht ...actually this was in reply to the provacation "am I currently employed?" Why would anyone ask that? What relevance does that have within a Leica forum? In an earlier thread I was told that Leica owners are either professionals or are CEO's, Lawyers, professionals for the most part...I was also told that many people have lots of leica kit and that would seem to me to be natural. I actually fit the specification. What I did not expect is that people would ask me if i am employed or not, and would make comments about yachts etc......Very very unfair and worse I do not see the value of such remarks when I actually think we are discussing serious subjects here. My only desire is to help Leica in what must be difficult choices for them as a company and in so doing protect and build on my investment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted June 10, 2009 Share #97 Posted June 10, 2009 My only desire is to help Leica in what must be difficult choices for them as a company and in so doing protect and build on my investment. I'm sure they are most grateful. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted June 10, 2009 Share #98 Posted June 10, 2009 Krell amps, expensive video projectors, a yacht. I don't think we've ever had so much personal information from anyone in such a short time before. Actually I am sure you are correct, but let's get it straight. I have been aggressed as follows: 1) Bang and Olufsen is a 2nd quality, cosmetically nice kit...not how Leica should go!. I mentioned Krell as agreement on actual audio performance. My point was about B&O sales channels ..their Boutiques and this has been ignored by all except one danish reader who agreed with me as he knows B&O clearly very well. 2) expensive video projectors...this I mentioned as I was at TI heavily involved in the DLP devt. that apparently is the future of Leica Pradovit.....except if you think my InFocus unit is expensive try Leica Pradovit at £8K+! 3) The yacht ...actually this was in reply to the provacation "am I currently employed?" Why would anyone ask that? What relevance does that have within a Leica forum? In an earlier thread I was told that Leica owners are either professionals or are CEO's, Lawyers, professionals for the most part...I was also told that many people have lots of leica kit and that would seem to me to be natural. I actually fit the specification. What I did not expect is that people would ask me if i am employed or not, and would make comments about yachts etc......Very very unfair and worse I do not see the value of such remarks when I actually think we are discussing serious subjects here. My only desire is to help Leica in what must be difficult choices for them as a company and in so doing protect and build on my investment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted June 10, 2009 Share #99 Posted June 10, 2009 My only desire is to help Leica in what must be difficult choices for them as a company and in so doing protect and build on my investment. By broadcasting on the internet...? Why not send them a CV instead - I am sure they will be impressed. A man of your claimed experience should readily recognise that the the problem with providing "free consultancy" is twofold. First, that something provided for free is perceived to be of lesser, or even nugatory value compared to that for which you have paid. Secondly you fall into the "whore's dilemma". Once you have provided your service it is very hard to ask for the money... Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 10, 2009 Share #100 Posted June 10, 2009 What I did not expect is that people would ask me if i am employed or not, and would make comments about yachts etc......Very very unfair and worse I do not see the value of such remarks when I actually think we are discussing serious subjects here. . Well, Frank, to be fair, you brought up the yacht yourself...How was the Death Race in Riga? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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