Guest BigSplash Posted June 8, 2009 Share #1 Posted June 8, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) I own 12 Leica M lenses, Visoflex, M4,5,6 and now the M8. My day job for the last decade has been as CEO successfully turning around high tech companies from loss to profit and then high growth. I believe the new CEO has a difficult but hopefully achievable task. I and i am sure all Forum readers wish him well....after the great job Herr Kaufmann has done, after Stephen Lee. I see the following: 1 The way Leicas and their accessories are sold needs significant improvement. >Today grey imports that surface in Europe from Hong Kong, apparently often with VAT unpaid, and with a guarantee only recognised in Solms does not have a high end feel about it! > The Leica Boutiques that have been set up in Japan, Paris, New York and shortly London is a great idea, provided it is set out like Bang & Olufsen do business: > Pricing is the same at any B&O dealer , > Pre and post sales service is excellent at B&O (Leica has a variable performance) > Sales people at B&O know what they are selling....Leica specialist shops know their product, but mail order Leica suppliers, and many Leica retailers usually do not! > Specialist Leica dealers need to have an incentive to invest in the shop, staff training, stock of the full Leica range, and in their relationship with the factory. > Visiting Hong Kong recently gave me a chance to hold new 0.95 Noctilux, new Tri Elmar Asph....etc etc. and see the new S cameras. I ask where is this possible in Europe? 2 Leica M series is "the" unique product that Leica have, and with the M8 they have re entered the market in the short term driven by sales from people who have a Leica investment already. The trouble is that they have two "cripplers" to address: a) The M8 is not full frame and this is a severe handicap. > Saphire Glass rear screens and improved shutter is good but at £1000 extra? > Expensive wide angle lenses such as 21mm becomes an also ran 28mm on an M8, and there is no way to get a 15mm on an M8. (NB the Zeiss and voigtlander 15 and 18mm was doing a rouring trade on Leica analogue models) Why would a semi pro buy an M8 kit ? (Compare the M8 with lenses to a Canon 50D with a zoom lens that takes excellent pictures at a price roughly the same as the Leica M8 body). Please note: > I used to be able to identify Leica photos from those taken by other makes. (It was relatively easy...edge sharpness, contrast and red colour saturation all excellent with a Leica). Frankly it is still possible but is becoming more difficult to identify the Leica photo these days. > Leica need lower costs and this means higher volume manufacture and continuous improvement / capital investment. In my view this has yet to be properly addressed and it is vitally important I believe to have an offering at a price that competes with the Canon 50D for example 3 Leica need a SLR digital camera (R9 digital) that can use the existing lenses at full frame....All of the points made about the M8 apply. 4 Leica have great faith in the S2 camera ...but is this really going to be a Hasselblad killer? If it does fantastic...it will help Leica business. If it does not then I would worry that scarce R&D resources are not being used on M9, and R10digital 5 Leica has always been regarded as the most rugged camera. The lenses are made of glass (not plastic), the bodies are a casting (not plastic) etc. Now I am told using the M8 seems to be dangerous if photographing in light rain, and the sensor is liable to attract dust....I see this as an item to correct. 6 Leica after sales servicing and repair takes too long and is too expensive. The result is that there is a bunch of repair people working from home that will do a M4, 5 6 service for about £170 compared to double or tripple that figure at Leica. This is not healthy in the long run. Comments? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 8, 2009 Posted June 8, 2009 Hi Guest BigSplash, Take a look here Challenges for new Leica CEO. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
marknorton Posted June 8, 2009 Share #2 Posted June 8, 2009 Yawn. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted June 8, 2009 Share #3 Posted June 8, 2009 Comments? I'm sure when they want strategic consultancy they will issue a Journal Notice. TED - Avantages de TED I doubt that they will pay too much attention to Armchair CEOs in the meantime. Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted June 8, 2009 Share #4 Posted June 8, 2009 I hardly think B&O are a company for Leica to emulate. They're losing huge amounts of money, they've just kicked out their CEO, the salesmen selling product (at least here in the UK) know nothing and anyone who opens their eyes and ears will tell you they are second rate technically. The recent expenses scandal for MPs here in the UK included one hapless loser who tried to claim £8000 for a TV, you've guessed it, a B&O. What "new" Tri-Elmar? The one launched nearly 3 years ago you mean? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted June 8, 2009 Share #5 Posted June 8, 2009 Its about time we had another one of these armchair CEO threads, thanks! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 8, 2009 Share #6 Posted June 8, 2009 The only conclusion I can draw from this post is that Leica should switch to mid-range HiFi equipment with more design than quality....Yawn indeed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wizard Posted June 8, 2009 Share #7 Posted June 8, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Well, I would not wholly dismiss all of the above, there is some merit in what the guy says. But I believe it is safe to assume that Dr. Kaufmann has already had at least some of these ideas himself, it just takes time for a relatively small company such as Leica to bring all those new products to market. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted June 8, 2009 Share #8 Posted June 8, 2009 I am sadenned and surprised by the negative comments above to my original mail. I did NOT expect this from people who I guess are intersted in Leicas future and maybe wish to influence it. In my case I own about £30K worth of leica kit (secondhand replacement value) ...if Leica fails that kit is going to drop in value significantly, and I shall not be able to add future exciting items that are yet to be developed, so I want Leica to succeed. On the specifics above: 1 I chose B&O as an example because they DO train their sales people, have a focussed sales channel that Leica are indeed emulating. >However my understanding is that in UK there is a plan to have a factory owned Leica Boutique in Mayfair. This is great if it does not undercut existing dealers. If this does not happen how will they persuade existing dealers to invest? 2 Go to eBay and type M8 or M8.2 and see the prices of Leica product from Hong Kong with Vat unpaid (that apparently enters UK with and UK customs allow it )...How can Leica AG allow this....and then expect dealers to invest? Try buying B&O at a lower price in a different country, and then try to get it serviced!? 3 Leica product roadmap.....I have seen Leica users suggest how the M8 might evolve, but it is a wish list, which is good. > How the wish list interprets to a road map that will drive a competitive productline against Canon 50D for example, or indeed Hasselblad at the high end surely is key to Leica long term viability as a company. > I would have thought knowledgeable Leica fans that are aware technically, and have business sense would have an opinion. Clearly I was wrong....excuse me. 4 I do own two B&O sytems but for my home cinema I do agree it is second rate...I have adopted Krell AV surround sound, 5 Krell power amps, DVD Arcam , inFocus high end DLM projector and studio grade Forstex speakers (5:1) howevever I am technical enough to fit and specify this level of equipment and also do the software modelling of the room acoustics myself .......... 5 In photography most people (myself included) need the support and advice of specialist retailers, who are motivated to support the client. > I was told by the Photography dept. of a well known superstore in London that sell Leica that the camera was useless and could not do multiple shots, without a 10 second interval between shots, and they did NOT recommend Leica M8 for this reason. > Further investigation showed that they were using a very cheap low spec memory card and did not understand what they were selling! 6 I refer to the new Tri Elmar lens, which has just been released, and the new Noctilux. In fact I would like to know where I can see everything Leica makes in London. This seems to be possible in Hong Kong Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 8, 2009 Share #9 Posted June 8, 2009 Well, the point is that it is the umpteenth thread in this vein, and frankly, most members feel that it is easier to post in a forum than to run a company, however well meant the post is, and I'm convinced that yours is well meant. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted June 8, 2009 Share #10 Posted June 8, 2009 Well, the point is that it is the umpteenth thread in this vein, and frankly, most members feel that it is easier to post in a forum than to run a company, however well meant the post is, and I'm convinced that yours is well meant. +1. Problem is that you can own as many lenses as you can afford and it does not buy you one whit of airtime with the people actually making the decisions, any more than buying a cheeseburger every day for lunch grants you the ear of Ronald McDonald. A little more brevity and a little less subjectivity goes a long way. I confess, however that I didn't get to the end of your second post in this thread because I was too busy dodging all those names being dropped... Don't worry about it. Stick around here and in a while you'll be groaning too when you see the next Armchair CEO step up to the podium. Until then, relax and enjoy being here and using your Leicas. Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJP Posted June 8, 2009 Share #11 Posted June 8, 2009 Most of the points discussed are well known & have been thrashed to death before. Nevertheless they are valid albeit somewhat of a caricature. Specialised shops selling Leica do know what they are talking about. A superstore is not the place to get best advice I fear. Re. "the new Tri Elmar lens, which has just been released". I am not aware of such a lens, the WATE - wide angle tri-elmar has been around for some time and is therefore not new. Do you mean the wide angle super-elmar 18mm? The other tri-elmar is the MATE, tri-elmar 35-50-28 f/4 ASPH, which was discontinued. I have not heard of any plans to reanimate it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted June 8, 2009 Share #12 Posted June 8, 2009 I already own the old tri elmar 28/35/50mm ...which gives me roughly 35 / 50 / 75mm on the M8....which is excellent for travelling / tourism, although this lens has been discontinued, which I am afraid I think was a mistake! I also own a 21mm Super angulon...but that becomes roughly 28mm on a M8..I therefore wanted to look at a super wide angle lens. There are two options as i see it: > The 18mm Super Elmar (f3.8) > The 16 /18/ 21 mm Tri Elmar M f4 Asph is a possibility although expensive and I already own a tri lens...... So simply put I wanted to look and feel these lenses in London and it is not obvious to find a dealer with these items in stock! I want to see how I could fit the items into a briefcase within small leather bags to use when I am travelling for business......! Some people suggest above that all of these items have been thrashed out and it is now boring. Well I am surprised because i have been looking at the Forum under a different name since 2 years and have seen some comments about the Leica line up (M9 hoped for spec...discontinued M9 digital, Solms love affair with Leica M specials such as Safari etc) and dispair about Steven Lee etc but I have not seen too much about: > The new CEO....a press announcement that he is ex Zeiss and that is it! Even my dealer has no visibility of his plans...... > Challenges that forum members feel need addressing to secure the brand commercially. > Dangers of the Leica Boutique plans as seen by existing Leica dealers > Grey Imports and leica attitude to this > After sales support and service > Spare parts availability for older cameras..... This last one is a mine field, where Leica need to do a better job in my view. For example: 1) I own a Leica Noctilux that second hand is valued at about £3k . It requires a 58mm filter but Leica only make a 55mm or a 60mm, and no adapter ring is available for a 60mm that I can find! This lens is used in dark available light photography, and the IR issue cuts in at low light....yet no filter option from Leica! 2) I own a Visoflex and want a clean screen for it as the old one has some mildew damage but this seems to not be available 3) Leica sell a small flash unit (made by Metz) but do not provide any support for larger more professional flash units as would be used by portrait photographers or the Press, and in my case for photographing electronic circuit boards. > The Wein Safe Sync, and Wein Smart Slave and Wein SSR Transmitter are items which I feel should be offered directly via Leica if the company is wishing to support a system offering. 4) Leica provide eye piece corrections lenses, filters and other small items but what is the recommended price? It seems impossible to get pricing info. for any of these accessories via a mail order company (where these items are actually NOT listed!) on the net or phoning a dealer and having him look it up....item by item, which is what I had to do! Why is there no recommended reatil price list for everything Leica make? I ask!? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted June 8, 2009 Share #13 Posted June 8, 2009 We tend not to get involved in I've-got-more-lenses-than-you-have (you haven't, as it happens) pissing competitions here because however high your stack of Krell amplifiers, it's likely someone here will have one higher. Who cares, anyway? You're just raking over old ground and stating the obvious. Just because we don't all lap up your pearls of wisdom (aka verbose patronising drivel) doesn't mean we are not technically aware and/or have no business sense. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted June 8, 2009 Share #14 Posted June 8, 2009 This last one is a mine field, where Leica need to do a better job in my view. For example:1) I own a Leica Noctilux that second hand is valued at about £3k . It requires a 58mm filter but Leica only make a 55mm or a 60mm, and no adapter ring is available for a 60mm that I can find! This lens is used in dark available light photography, and the IR issue cuts in at low light....yet no filter option from Leica! ... 4) Leica provide eye piece corrections lenses, filters and other small items but what is the recommended price? It seems impossible to get pricing info. for any of these accessories via a mail order company (where these items are actually NOT listed!) on the net or phoning a dealer and having him look it up....item by item, which is what I had to do! Why is there no recommended reatil price list for everything Leica make? I ask!? Point 1. Leica don't make one? Buy a B+W 58mm filter instead... B+W 58mm MRC UV-Infrared 486 Cut Filter: Amazon.co.uk: Electronics & Photo Point 4. Take a look at Ffordes - ffordes photographic : Main Index - look under New Equipment>Leica>M accessories. You'll see the prices for the small accessories. Using a filter on the Noctilux at low light isn't necessarily a good idea. If you're shooting outdoors at night there may well be point light sources and these can very easily cause reflections to appear on the images if a filter is used. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 8, 2009 Share #15 Posted June 8, 2009 2) I own a Visoflex and want a clean screen for it as the old one has some mildew damage but this seems to not be available So buy another Visoflex as a spare part donor. A heavily used one should cost next to nothing. Or fit a Brightscreen. Or use a cut-down R screen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 8, 2009 Share #16 Posted June 8, 2009 I already own the old tri elmar 28/35/50mm ...which gives me roughly 35 / 50 / 75mm on the M8....which is excellent for travelling / tourism, although this lens has been discontinued, which I am afraid I think was a mistake! Not a mistake - it turned out to be impossible to get the correct glass for the front element any more. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted June 8, 2009 Share #17 Posted June 8, 2009 Mark I find your comments offensive and unhelpful. I really do not understand why you and some others on the thread do not focus the real issues and positively make suggestions to help the new CEO as he settles into his new job. I am sure people have more lenses, or Krell amplifiers etc. but that is not relevant here. What I am asking and trying to comment that is relevant is: > What is Leica doing to help protect users with older Leica kit (Lenses & Visoflex). If they do not do this then i suspect the total available market of people who will invest in a new leica M8, plus a set of new lenses (£10K for a small kit with no SLR capability) is not as large as tapping the existing user base in the short term! > If Leica make more product roadmap errors then they have in history (SLR seen as a fad, TTL metering seen as a gimmick, focus on speciality "safari", white or gold plated celebration models!) then this puts at risk the lens investments that many people have made and will make in the near future > What should the product road map as seen by users be? You say the last point has been explored at length.and you clearly have a view..OK please tell me or point me to the threads that are relevant! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 8, 2009 Share #18 Posted June 8, 2009 Ummm- the Visoflex was discontinued, what is it - forty years ago? A bit unrealistic to demand support. And why should the customers provide a product roadmap:confused: Marketing by voting? Where do you get the idea TTL metering was seen as a gimmick? It was introduced on the M6 as soon as electronics were compact enough to fit in a standard M body, with development help of the university of Munich. Not to mention the M5 and Cl. SLR seen as a fad? Tell that to Leicaflex SL owners. What about special editions. The first Leica Luxus - goldplated and snake leather dates from 1929. All of your premises are clearly mistaken - not very confidence-inspiring for the conclusions. I get the strong impression that the rant is not based on solid facts, but rather what we call "borretafelpraat"- pub talk. And this one is really funny - that is the essence of a rangefinder - what we are paying for.. with no SLR capability Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted June 8, 2009 Share #19 Posted June 8, 2009 I really do not understand why you and some others on the thread do not focus the real issues and positively make suggestions to help the new CEO as he settles into his new job. Are you really suggesting that the CEO or a company should base bis business strategy on the comments made in an internet forum? Do you not think he may possibly have access to data about the business that's not in the public domain? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted June 8, 2009 Share #20 Posted June 8, 2009 Steve ...many thanks for the advice Re 58 mm filter and it use on the noctilux....I'll checkout Ffordes...thanks Jaap....thanks for the visibility about the front glass, and other inputs that you have provided today. However if they cannot make a 28/50/35mm (f4) it is amazing that they can make a 16/18/21mm (f3.8) ....I guess the 16/18/21 can command a higher price. That said I would have thought at a lower price the older Tri elmar is a great item for travel photography as this lens offers wide angle at 35 mm (on M8) through to about 75mm (on M8) which is a preferred focal length for portrait and is almost telephoto . It used to be that the ideal lenses for travel were 35mm and 90 mm and with that you could enjoy a varied photographic experience. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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