sdai Posted June 10, 2009 Share #81 Posted June 10, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) That kind of business is pretty short-sighted and I always try to build long-term relationships based on trust ... I couldn't agree more ... I hope Leica can learn a lesson or two by ditching these short-sighted adventures such as the S2 and build a long-term relationship with existing R and M users based on trust and loyalty. Best to all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 10, 2009 Posted June 10, 2009 Hi sdai, Take a look here S2 to be shown in Paris 06/06. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
wildlightphoto Posted June 10, 2009 Share #82 Posted June 10, 2009 I am trying to give the insight of a working pro. I know your view on everything photographic is unique to your perspective. So you can drop the condescension every time I try to say why so many people are happy with the results they are getting with their current "lesser" gear. Because you apparently can't understand that this is a simple fact that will affect S2 sales.... I know some cameras and lenses can produce more detail but there are always trade-offs. This was made with an original 5D and the 24-105. I don't generally need much more detail in this kind of photo although this is only made with a 12 megapixel camera and a zoom lens. So there is a lot of "better" gear out there that still doesn't cost nearly as much as an S2 and its lenses. The original ad was only a different shot of just the girl in front. (I shot the two of them plus the cat for fun.) I posted medium res proofs and the client quickly ran that in the ad instead of even getting high res adjusted files from me. That's how it often is these days. Alan, I have no problem with you meeting your needs with whatever equipment you consider appropriate. I don't have to agree, and I can accept the fact that your needs are not the same as mine. I do appreciate your posts, and I don't want you to disappear, but I can't help wondering how you're benefitting from your participation here? Leicas aren't about being adequate, they're about being superlative. I see adequate resolution in your photos, but only that and nothing that would make me consider changing camera systems. You've made the point that the image quality is adequate to satisfy your clients, and if the clients you are marketing to are the ones who squeeze expenses and accept reduced image quality in return then it would be foolish for you to consider the Leica S system. I agree. There are lots of other kinds of clients, it's all a matter of what market you wish to serve. The image quality you've shown in these photos has completely satisfied my curiosity about the 5DII. I'll wait. (EDIT) I've also received many letters and e-mails from satisfied clients saying how much they like the photos. The funny thing is these have almost always been about photos that I considered technically weaker. It's all a matter of client expectations. I sell entirely from stock so my potential clients have a wide variety of budgets and expectations. There are some clients for whom a recognizable image is all that matters, there are others for whom nothing short of technical perfection will do. If my photos are adequately sharp or have only adequate color quality or adequate tonal range or gradation I'll sell to some clients and I'll lose others. It's a choice I've made, I'd rather lose as few clients as possible. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted June 10, 2009 Share #83 Posted June 10, 2009 I do appreciate your posts, and I don't want you to disappear, but I can't help wondering how you're benefitting from your participation here? Leicas aren't about being adequate, they're about being superlative. I see adequate resolution in your photos, but only that and nothing that would make me consider changing camera systems. I am sure you see whatever you want to see. You have to directly compare the same image shot with two cameras to make a useful comparison. I shot the same image with an M8 and a 35 f2 and it certainly had less detail than the 5DII and a lowly 50 1.8. As a matter of fact even the 5D and 45mm TSE combo was better. I don't see why it is a concern of yours how I benefit from acquiring or disseminating information. Nobody is benefiting from the S2 as the camera isn't even available. And how long it will be before the 350 is out is anyone's guess. So it isn't as if I could get better results from any Leica. We're just spinning our wheels at the moment speculating about whether the S2 would be better for this or that application. Considering I am currently producing 70-100 megapixel equivalent files, I am having a hard time understanding how shooting 37 megapixel files will be an improvement. Maybe I could use the S2 and stitch 3 photos instead of 6. Big deal. You can crave all of the detail and "superlatives" you desire, but when push comes to shove lets see the difference in real world typical use. The focus of a 350 at f3.5 is tricky and just has to be the teeny tiniest bit off and the resolution won't beat the 5DII with 70-200 combo at 200mm 2.8. And sometimes one needs IS. I had a Rollei 6006 and 350 Zeiss and it wasn't easy to use at all. Well maybe that center point AF on the S2 and re-framing will work, or maybe not. Whereas magnified live view lets you focus incredibly accurately. (Not for birds but when using a tripod and photographing the stationary old Marine, it is pretty easy.) I guess we might know in a year or so. By then maybe I'll have some clients with money. (I would never buy any gear at this point unless I am sure it is good value and will make me money. If the S2 can do that for me I'd consider it.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted June 10, 2009 Author Share #84 Posted June 10, 2009 Can someone explain how 5D shots, with Canon lenses, are in any way relevant to this discussion? Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted June 10, 2009 Share #85 Posted June 10, 2009 You have to directly compare the same image shot with two cameras to make a useful comparison. so why post them at all? I don't see why it is a concern of yours how I benefit from acquiring or disseminating information. You are correct, it's really no concern of mine. Just curious. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted June 10, 2009 Share #86 Posted June 10, 2009 Can someone explain how 5D shots, with Canon lenses, are in any way relevant to this discussion? Thanks Guy posted this and I quoted him and posted my examples as support for that view - ...Not a freaking chance is it viable right now. Let's talk next year is maybe when we see Pro's actually dropping real money again. Many are dropping back to DSLR's to survive the market. It will be up to the hobbyists to carry the torch for awhile. Bottom line just shit timing for Leica and that is just too bad for them. Not much really they can do except wait it out like everyone else. I'm wondering if it is even worth the launch of it. It is just that bad, I see on my forum many folks jumping on the Sony and given there choices in the 22mpx plus in DSLR they are all jumping on it mainly for price... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted June 10, 2009 Share #87 Posted June 10, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) so why post them at all? You are correct, it's really no concern of mine. Just curious. I own about 100,000 shares of Canon stock. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulmoore Posted June 10, 2009 Share #88 Posted June 10, 2009 Can someone explain how 5D shots, with Canon lenses, are in any way relevant to this discussion? Thanks yes it has swayed OT, but the comparison of the S2 and the now available 5dII is a valid topic, many professionals have down sized to FFdslrs for their work and find that it is 1. affordable 2. clients of those who have switched seem fine with the file sizes and qualilty 3. large lens selection. The yet to be released S2 : 1. not available til early fall 2. some clients are none-the-wiser, some will appreciate the difference. 3. will have killer lenses, but small range. 4. be so kool that you will ask your assistant to pinch you to make sure you aren't dreaming and you will soon forget how to even spell canon. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted June 10, 2009 Share #89 Posted June 10, 2009 What I am really tired of hearing throughout this forum with folks that really don't know what they are talking about when it comes to MF and especially Hassy and Mamiya both in backs , bodies and there lenses on what crap they are compared to some Leica coming out that is so superior. What amazing amount of brainwashing is going on is beyond me. These systems can run circles around anything out there and some have no idea how these files actually look,produce and print. Also they have been doing this far longer than many have even been shooting digital. PLEASE TRUST ME the Mamiya and Hassy shit lenses that you all are referring to can blow your freaking doors off the road. You think I am stupid enough not to shoot some of the best systems out there and it's glass not to mention invest all this money on garbage . If any one that is the biggest gear slut on the planet it is me by a mile. Folks I am not a idiot and would never shoot something that is even remotely inferior. I would have stayed with the M8 , DMR and a host of other fine systems if I did not think this system would actually produce. The S2 will be a nice system but it will not be any better than what is already on the streets. It will have some nice new features and some more mobility and sure it will be a fine system but please don't let people brainwashing you thinking everything else sucks. I honestly can't read the last 15 posts, I never read so much posturing in my life. My rant is over and I am out of here. Please get real, nothing frustrates me more than BS marketing. BTW this has nothing to do with how much I like Leica and it may sound like I don't but that is far from the truth what you are not getting here is the truth. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted June 10, 2009 Share #90 Posted June 10, 2009 PLEASE TRUST ME the Mamiya and Hassy shit lenses... I don't think anyone said they were _quite_ that bad. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted June 10, 2009 Share #91 Posted June 10, 2009 Hey Steve are you my shadow. Amazing you always have to follow my posts. Trust me it is implied on almost every post with Hassy or Mamiya name in it. Now leaf joined the party. Next we will hear Sinar Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulmoore Posted June 11, 2009 Share #92 Posted June 11, 2009 I honestly can't read the last 15 posts, I never read so much posturing in my life. My rant is over and I am out of here. Please get real, nothing frustrates me more than BS marketing. BTW this has nothing to do with how much I like Leica and it may sound like I don't but that is far from the truth what you are not getting here is the truth. wow, I did not read the last 15 posts the same as you but you clearly take offense to what you see as mamyia bashing..I have shot the phamamyia / p45+ / 120 macro and it was impressive.. so I agree the differences here are minimal to the say the least..I make no bones about my attraction to the Leica brand..based on my r system, I have great hopes for the S2.. I don't really see brainwashing going on though...maybe a bit of equipment porn to pass the time cause I have not been able to touch the real thing yet. .. and it is all done with tongue in cheek. ..any comps I have made were about 35mm FF dslrs and I will be a true believer when I get a file on my computer. So in short I think you may have overreacted a bit..but I don't know the post history..I know there are some on these forums which really push my buttons. Lets all hope for clients with deeper pockets..or any pockets! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted June 11, 2009 Share #93 Posted June 11, 2009 Not just this thread but the whole deal on the S2 , way to much marketing BS and words like superior are ridiculous and the list goes on. Will not waste my time trying to prove how good MF is and what it's benefits really are but Hassy and Mamiya are the most used and respected systems out there. Paul you are a rare exception on this forum that actually has used this type of gear and went through files and such, many have not and going by internet chatter. Like to see some folks actually go work with these systems for awhile before they actually speak of them. I just can't stand to read half truths and missing data that just does not come out in public. What really bugs me more than anything is people are being mislead in many ways. I get tons of folks asking advice and guidance on this stuff and the last thing I want anyone to do is spend 30k and not get what they are truly after or find out later the system will not do this or that. I have had more people say to me I bought the wrong system and I know what that feeling is of spending 30k and have a house , 3 cars and two kids depending on your income. You don't want to screw up, this is REAL money. and not easy to get it back. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted June 11, 2009 Share #94 Posted June 11, 2009 Changing topics a little did anyone notice that Leica's chief operating officer (COO) Stefan Trippe has resigned? Rudolf Spiller, the Chief Executive Officer (CEO) of Leica Camera AG is taking over his duties. The high turnover of senior management does not bode well for Leica and the press release is typical PR BS with no real substance or meat. The annual report has not yet been released but you can be sure when it is you will see more of the real picture of what is happening behind the scenes. A good guess is that things are not going well. You don't let your chief operating officer go in just over a year if things are going great. Maybe the S2 will turn out to be a brilliant strategy but I doubt it. The money should have gone into an M9 and R10 or better yet a CL like camera to reach into a market that Panasonic, Olympus and Samsung are going to take away from Leica and that could have been their market. I guess we will see. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgcd Posted June 11, 2009 Share #95 Posted June 11, 2009 Not just this thread but the whole deal on the S2 , way to much marketing BS and words like superior are ridiculous and the list goes on. Will not waste my time trying to prove how good MF is and what it's benefits really are but Hassy and Mamiya are the most used and respected systems out there. .... Well I haven't seen the S2 yet, I have used MF extensively in the past and frankly until I get to test the S2 (hint, hint...) I cannot comment. Most of us can't. The specs look good. I expect Leica will make it superlative, it probably won't be everything to everyone. But I'm eagerly waiting to have one in my hands and put it through its paces. For myself, I don't understand the positioning of the S2 as "medium" format. Somehow the conversation got highjacked into this medium format comparison (yes Leica itself started it...). To me, once more, the attraction of the system is that it's bigger than full frame DSLRs and offers the portability, versatility and optical excellence of DSLR system cameras on a larger format. My biggest hesitation is frankly potential price points, still unknown but expected by some to be very steep. Many good points have been made about cameras like the 5D MKII changing the lay of the land for many professionals. I'm considering one myself to be honest not for its stills camera capabilities but for its video abilities. Such platforms offer a degree of high quality convergence that is not to be overlooked. I can't help worry that the S2 system was positioned based on pre-economic-crisis data (...I get that the medium format positioning allows for healthier margins too...) but that's not my issue. I just want a Leica reflex camera system that will not get me to mortgage my entire bloodline. In my case, I would love the same specs as the S2 (save for a much faster burst rate and superb high ISO ratings) + full resolution HD video in a full frame 35mm sized sensor R digital successor priced no higher or less than the Nikon D3X, that will accept existing R lenses (without requiring an adapter) and new AF lenses... but I digress and I'm obviously hallucinating... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
georg Posted June 11, 2009 Share #96 Posted June 11, 2009 - 4/3 is an amateur-format because of the tiny sensor-format, those people are barely willing to pay high-quality design/production to Leica-standards - The M is an exotic design, they need a parallel SLR-system, full-frame is still tricky - 35MM-DSLRs are dominated by two huge companies with much cheaper prosumer-cameras and much faster press-cameras, the digital R will just be a small player, they learned that with the R8 - The MF-market consists of a few tiny companies, the market-leader has a little bit more than 100 employees, has invested all it's money into a 645-system and thrown away it's legacy cameras they were famous for. Then they "digitized" it by buying a MFDB-maker and adapting & closing the once modular-system. So the market that profits from Leica-quality more than others was also the one with the weakest competition, much smaller competitors, smaller R&D-budgets, nobody has know-how for optics, body & digital department combined. The S2 is the first real "closed" system, optimized for it's sensor-size (the only non-crop MF-system around has to be build around a 40k$ P65+!!!). What has Leica-marketing said? 1. It's faster - it really seems so, even the prototypes, no MF-maker uses a specialized ASIC instead of DSPs 2. It's sealed - well I haven't tried that, we'll see 3. It's smaller - we already see that 4. Excellent ergonomics - I really liked it 5. FPS & CS-shutter - anyone else? 6. Lenses - Guy, believe it or not, people who claim to see the difference between their H3D-50-resolution and their old H3D-39 will see a clear difference just as they can see it today with switching to Rodenstock/Schneider. It's not the most versatile system, it cannot be used with technical cameras - well, they never claimed anything different. Can they offer a good service and will it be free of any major flaws? - that are the questions, not the IQ or the specific advantages of the S-System. But let's see what you will say when you see the first comparison shots S2 vs. D3X/21MPCanon/Phamiya/Fujiblad... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted June 11, 2009 Share #97 Posted June 11, 2009 Hey Steve are you my shadow. Amazing you always have to follow my posts. If you think I follow you then you are sadly mistaken. I've been following this thread rather than any individual and have been slightly surprised that so many people have such strong opinions on the image quality of a camera that hasn't been released yet. A few of course have seen photos from the prototype, and/or seen the MTFs of the lenses. They seem as one to think it's superb. I predict you'll have one within 12 months of launch. You obviously like your current kit and see a need to defend it. I've no problem with that. I can remember you saying more or less the same thing when you had your M8. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptomsu Posted June 11, 2009 Share #98 Posted June 11, 2009 I only can back Guy here! It is amazing to see all this wishful thinking about the new and not yet available S System. It is clearly NOT MF, because MF is larger and thus it also needs larger lenses and has a larger body. And gets you already today 60MP files if you desire so. But the real beauty about Phase and Hasselblad MF systems is, that you can choose yourself how far you want to go in terms of quality and resolution. So the price range from entry level 31MP till the top end 60MP is huge and you have plenty of models in between and of course prices With the S System you will only get 1 possibility and you have to go with it for many years to come, before you can even think about any update in terms of new sensor etc from Leica - usually I would rate these intervals in 5 years range best case knowing Leicas past. Meanwhile you will have been able to change backs several times wit the other brands if you wish to do so for whatever reason. And I do not even touch the quality so far, as this has been discussed meanwhile in length already! To understand me right, while I am also intrigued by the S System concept like many others, I must say that I live today, I work today and I need results today - which unfortunately is NOT what Leica stands for today Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
markowich Posted June 11, 2009 Share #99 Posted June 11, 2009 i coud not agree more. hasselblad H3D II 50 (and i guess 39..) files are fantastic. the same holds for leaf and phase. i have no experience with sinar so i do not comment. the S2 will somewhere be between the D3x and the medium format world, closer though to the D3x i suppose. other expectations are clearly unrealistic. but anyway, recently i met a guy who in all earnest tried to explain to me that his vintage morgan beats any porsche out there.... peter Not just this thread but the whole deal on the S2 , way to much marketing BS and words like superior are ridiculous and the list goes on. Will not waste my time trying to prove how good MF is and what it's benefits really are but Hassy and Mamiya are the most used and respected systems out there. Paul you are a rare exception on this forum that actually has used this type of gear and went through files and such, many have not and going by internet chatter. Like to see some folks actually go work with these systems for awhile before they actually speak of them. I just can't stand to read half truths and missing data that just does not come out in public. What really bugs me more than anything is people are being mislead in many ways. I get tons of folks asking advice and guidance on this stuff and the last thing I want anyone to do is spend 30k and not get what they are truly after or find out later the system will not do this or that. I have had more people say to me I bought the wrong system and I know what that feeling is of spending 30k and have a house , 3 cars and two kids depending on your income. You don't want to screw up, this is REAL money. and not easy to get it back. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted June 11, 2009 Share #100 Posted June 11, 2009 ...I would love the same specs as the S2 (save for a much faster burst rate and superb high ISO ratings) + full resolution HD video in a full frame 35mm sized sensor R digital successor priced no higher or less than the Nikon D3X, that will accept existing R lenses (without requiring an adapter) and new AF lenses... but I digress and I'm obviously hallucinating... Not so sure. Did you see what David Farkas wrote here? http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/930448-post119.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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