M8: banding/0.68 finder/saturation — buy or wait?

[gdewitt]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I just don't understand why people continually compare SLRs and rangefinders directly. It's like comparing a Porsche and a pick-up truck, they both get you down the road but do it very differently.

 

For many people that may be true. But not for all. I don't actually give a rat's a$$ about rangefinders. I bought an M8 DESPITE the fact that it is a rangefinder. Because there are more important issues for me. I realize I'm in the minority here, as usual, but I think the direct comparison is perfectly valid. If Nikon produced an FF digital FM I would be all over it instead of the M8, for example. That will never happen as all the SLR makers, except Leica, have gone the auto-everything, LCD menu, AF route.

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[stunsworth]

Hi Gary, I don't know if you've used a rangefinder before, but many people find it a very different experience to using an SLR, and it isn't always easy to adapt to at first.

 

Personally I had no problems, in fact I loved it from the very start, but other people have realised that a rangefinder isn't for them and gone back to an SLR. Both viewpoints are valid, it comes down to personal preference, but there is a fundamental difference in practice between the two.

 

I understand your distaste for the auto everything route that modern SLRs have taken, but there's no need to use the options if you don't want to. I use Leica manual focus lenses on my Canon 5D and the only camera parameters I change on a regular basis are the ISO speed and exposure compensation - I tend to shoot aperture priority or manual.

[rvaubel]

I bought an M8 DESPITE the fact that it is a rangefinder. Because there are more important issues for me.

 

Well I hope that the "more important issue for me" is the compactness and weight issue. That's the major advantage of the rangefinder format for me at least. Peering thru the rangefinder window as an aesthetic experience rates pretty low as a reason for preferring the rangefinder format. I expect the M8 to perform as well as the full frame Canons at 640 ISO but at half the kit weight. Plus I can use all the cool M mount glass produced in the last half century.

 

Rex

[Guest malland]

Have you looked at Alien Skin's Exposure software? You can immulate the look of many film emulsions in color and B&W and add grain that looks very much like film. Email me at: butchwelch@charter.net if you would like me to send you a sample image.

 

Butch:

 

I'm quite familiar with and have used Alien Skins Exposure, and there are better ways as well of simulating grain. But, as stated in my original posting, I don't like the idea of doing this because if one wants to have a film-like look so much one might as well shoot film. Also, as stated above, there is an immediacy when working on a file that has the grain in it that ultimately results in better pictures than through simulation. Perhaps I should call it the zen aspect of post-processing <grin>.

 

—Mitch/Bangkok

[stunsworth]

Peering thru the rangefinder window as an aesthetic experience rates pretty low as a reason for preferring the rangefinder format.

 

On the contrary, for me it's one of the _most_ important differences between a rangefinder and SLR.

 

The two majot advantages it provides are that everything is in focus and you can see around the outside of the frame.

[vlasoye]

I was at the javit center yesterday and I tried the m8 with the new 28mm.

I'm really interested in that camera but I must say that the indoor color balance is not there yet and that I also experienced banding on most of the pictures...

Hopefully Leica will be able to fix that issue in the future.

see examples

 

PS / for Sean who seems to be the "messenger" to Leica. That would be helpfull to have a blinking red warning for over exposure. I know that there is a white zone but I do think a blinking red would much more efficient when working outside in daylight

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[gogopix]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Buy. Do not wait. No camera is perfect but the M8 is pretty darn good. Learn to get the best out of it, live with its defaults like you did with any other camera.

 

Just my opinion.

 

This is a comment to take to heart. I have been doing photography of one sort or another since my aunt gave me my first camera at 10. So now after over half a century it strikes me that two things are at work

 

1. excessive focus on technology (as opposed to image making), and

2. mass hysteria!

 

In old days when new cameras and lenses came out and new film, there was time to absorb and not "gang up" on the equipment

 

now, with the internet, it seems like the frenzy of a highschool football rally, quick communication of the bad or the good (mass hysteria seems quite random in direction :-) and groups just 'pile on' (i say mea culpa too since I started the 8/16 thread)

 

The bottom line is that in the pastwe took our time and learned where quality was long term, rather than jumping so quickly on the criterion 'du jour' (like pixels, like high ISO) and we tend to ignore the more qualitative

 

'it feels solid' and 'I really like the images!'

 

the last for me is what is important. I did not quote Mitch, but his post tells the story that an artistic perspective is more important than the tech details. It is interesting that these last threads tell him how to basically 'fuzz and noise up' images to look like film.

 

 

If Icould even step back and get more than HALF my old film to be properly exposed, focused, color balanced etc, I would be happy if even 10% images over 1250 with banding (an ASA level we didnt even DREAM of in the 60's and 70's.)

!

Regards

Victor

[newyorkone]

I think that Leica may need to take a step back firmware wise. I think something might have been introduced by the latest firmware - banding and blooming/CA.

 

Rona|d posted some beautiful shots and that was early firmware from August.

[andybarton]

The two majot advantages it provides are that everything is in focus and you can see around the outside of the frame.

 

I find that the fact that everything is in focus is a major DISadvantage.

 

Doesn't stop me enjoying using the M, though.

[andybarton]

I was at the javit center yesterday and I tried the m8 with the new 28mm.

I'm really interested in that camera but I must say that the indoor color balance is not there yet and that I also experienced banding on most of the pictures...

 

That's the worst banding I have seen, and completely unacceptable, IMHO.

[pascal_meheut]

Yes but I wonder if it does not change from camera to camera. Because mine did not show any in similar situations.

[sean_reid]

I handled the camera for the first time yesterday at the Javits Photo expo here in New York and came away more impressed than expected. I have a series of DMRs and Ms and came away convinced that the M8 is for me. I also want to commend Sean Reid on a superb job of critiquing the M8 and advise all of you to read his review. The 0.68 issue can be readily corrected by using the 1.25 magnifier which I use anyway on my M7 with my 90mm f/2 in low light situations. As to banding, well there will always be a firmwar update in the future if this is truely a problem.

 

Thank you very much.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[rfleica]

That's the worst banding I have seen, and completely unacceptable, IMHO.

 

This banding issue is a big-time concern for me:confused: . Some posts have talked about it being a sensor issue, others suggest firmware. Some posters believe that leica will sort it in aftersales, others are skeptical.

 

i am waiting for a london dealer's first shipment during the week, and i am top of their wait list, bar one. unless i know this is a non-issue, i think i might wait it out a few months. what a shame. it would be good to get a statement asap from leica that such defects will indeed be subject to warranty rectification - firmware/hardware/whatever. Leica: please can we have a statement?

[pemayeux]

Will the finder be a "must" with the 50mm lens? I ask because the last thing I want to do is clutter up the camera with that contraption.

[Guest stnami]

.... and the band played Waltzing Matilda.... waltzing Matilda you come a waltzing with me..... so any Leicas that are the band members come over to me for a couple of days and I will instruct you on harmony......

 

... this banding was an issue with the Nikon D200, problem was rectified with a firmware update... relax

[MSmelik]

I don't think I would ever of niticed the banding if it had not been for the posts on the subject. I have actually gone insane, completely mad and went out to test the banding on my M8 tonight, it is surely there, my M8 Bands ....

I didn't even know what banding was, now I do and it's pretty strong I must say

 

I wonder when I will standing in front of brick walls and taking pictures of them .....

 

 

 

...If ever in the long run I would of come across it myself I would of probably mistaken it for the famous Leica glow .....

[Rona!d]

5D vs M8

As somebody who has some thousand shots with both cameras to me it makes NO sense to post a side by side-test when somebody says the M8-shots up to 1250 ASA are too "perfect" (his reason NOT to buy the M8) and above 1250 ASA the 5D is the low-noise-winner (again his reason NOT to buy the M8). Just one thing: I can use the f2.8 Leica M-wideangles FULLY OPEN while i often have to stop the EOS-wideangles down to 5.6 or even more to get the same quality.

 

It´s so funny. Go out and take pictures with whatever - most cameras are better than their users skills.

 

cheers, Ronald

 

p.s. Downsampling the quality of M8 and 5D shots is not so difficult if they are too perfect and BOTH systems have their fields.

[lct]

Got banding issues as well with the R-D1 and the D70 from time to time.

Typically in underexposed zones contrasting with high light sources.

Avoiding too much contrast seems to be the best preventive solution.

Otherwise 'Band Aide' may help but if tends to soften as much as it removes banding IMHO.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[clayh]

Okay, I can make it show banding.

 

Bright light sources, even at the ISO640 shown here give some pretty awful banding.

 

Also there are some ghosts that are popping up in the image. I am not sure whether it is the lens or the sensor causing the ghosting.

 

For what it is worth, I took essentially the same shot at the same ISO with a Canon 5D and the 24-105 zoom at the about the same focal length and aperture. No banding at all.

 

I realize that all digital sensors are like slide film in that they blow out highlights, but in the case of the M8, it does not fail gracefully, and causes a lot of undesireable side effects. Somehow, the people at Canon have learned how to prevent this problem. My take on this is that the M8 will make a lousy camera to take out on the street at night, because every street light will be poised to royally screw up your image.

 

These images are both shot at ISO640, underexposed by 1-2/3 to 2 stops, processed in Capture One with the default profiles. I have reduced the saturation of the Leica file by 20%.

 

The leica image was taken with the new 28 elmarit ASPH with no filter in front of the lens. Still some pretty bad ghosting from the bright light source.

 

I also want to emphasize that I took this photo intentionally attempting to make the M8 fail, and to see how the Canon handled the same situation. Now that I know what it does in this situation, you can bet I will avoid pictorial situations with bright lights in the frame when I am using the M8.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[clayh]

Please note that the posterization in the Canon image is due to the aggressive down-sizing of the 'Save for Web' jpeg conversion in CS2. The original file does not have this. The jpegs were really intended to only illustrate the banding phenomenon.