New S2 competitor from Phase One

[lct]

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...everybody should be happy.

With Canon bodies for our R lenses you mean? Looks like i don't live in the same world as Leica's any more...

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The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[sdai]

With Canon bodies for our R lenses you mean? Looks like i don't live in the same world as Leica's any more...

 

No, I meant to propose a truly ground up APS-H size Leica camera utilizing live view with full backward R and M compatibility.

 

Leica has to move on before it turns to be irrelevant.

[AlanG]

No, I meant to propose a truly ground up APS-H size Leica camera utilizing live view with full backward R and M compatibility.

 

Leica has to move on before it turns to be irrelevant.

 

That would work and potentially could make a nice compact and affordable system. It could be an answer. But at this point it may not be so much better than the M4/3rds to be worth it, considering it will require new lens designs and will still be larger than M4/3rds.

 

Plus the legacy issues of the M and R lenses surely cry out for some kind of Leica FF body even if the wide M lenses won't work on it. (And maybe at some point they will.) But I can't see this as being successful if it can't attract new users via "affordable" lenses. And that would be even more true with an APS-H sensor system as it would not offer more for R users than they get with the 5DII or more for M users than what they get with the M8. (Other than live view - which could be added to an M9.)

[lct]

No, I meant to propose a truly ground up APS-H size Leica camera...

Then Canon for full frame as i said. Why not after all? I would buy a couple Zeiss lenses for my 5D and use my dear old Leica lenses from time to time to recall the old days when Leica made cameras for me and other FF users.

[sdai]

... at this point it may not be so much better than the M4/3rds to be worth it, considering it will require new lens designs and will still be larger than M4/3rds.

 

An APS-H size sensor is more than twice (121%) as large as a 4/3 sensor but is only 39.7% of the S2 sensor.

 

It fits perfectly in the middle of a S2 and a 4/3.

 

There'll be new lenses but my key point is, now R and M can be all ditched and Leica no longer needs to bother with legacy issues, while full backward compatibility is still possible.

[sdai]

Then Canon for full frame as i said. Why not after all? I would buy a couple Zeiss lenses for my 5D and use my dear old Leica lenses from time to time to recall the old days when Leica made cameras for me and other FF users.

 

The 5D is a great camera, LCT ... if you stay away from the Internet forums all will be fine actually.

[gogopix]

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I believe in another forum the 40+ with Phamyia body was considered the "S2 killer". I am happy to see that the conversation came around to the lenses; that's where the battlefield will be. Without having access to S2 glass I only hope it is the M/R tradition. In another forum, a Phamyia body/PO back/Mamyia lens shot was shown and then a Leica shot of a similar scene was shown. Supposedly this was to show the 3-d , detail etc of MF.

I actually preferred the Leica shot; it had that depth and life we have come to expect. If its there, then Leica will keep its niche-if not, it will be just anothre small MF almost camera.

Do I think it will hold its own vs the Zeiss glass designs on H2 and Contax?

Time will tell

 

:-)

 

Victor

[ptomsu]

I believe in another forum the 40+ with Phamyia body was considered the "S2 killer". I am happy to see that the conversation came around to the lenses; that's where the battlefield will be. Without having access to S2 glass I only hope it is the M/R tradition. In another forum, a Phamyia body/PO back/Mamyia lens shot was shown and then a Leica shot of a similar scene was shown. Supposedly this was to show the 3-d , detail etc of MF.

I actually preferred the Leica shot; it had that depth and life we have come to expect. If its there, then Leica will keep its niche-if not, it will be just anothre small MF almost camera.

Do I think it will hold its own vs the Zeiss glass designs on H2 and Contax?

Time will tell

 

:-)

 

Victor

 

Victor,

 

while I agree with your thoughts about Leica glass compared to Phamiya lenses I must say that Zeiss glass is at least as good as Leica glass in my eyes at least.

 

Tried Zeiss lenses with the new Sony A900 - and this really rocks. Comes quite close to MF quality with Phamiya (not counting MP here) and I think it is because of the Zeiss quality maybe 60% and the quality of the A900 sensor at low ISO responsible for roughly the other 40%.

 

My point is, that the difference between a A900 with Zeiss glass and the S2 will definitely be there, but it is shrinking remarkably compared to what Canon and Nikon can deliver in the high resolution DSLR range with their lenses today.

 

So finally I would say that there is not a new replacement of the future S2, but a very serious competitor, especially if it comes to price/performance overall considerations

 

And - the market for the S2 is shrinking further. From one side because of the new FF DSLRs with high end glass and from the other side from the MFDBs and cameras getting much cheaper in the 31 - 40 MP range (H3D2 with 31MP back and Phamiya with P40+ back).

 

And - this is happening NOW, and in 6-9 months totally new challenges will be there from the DSLR scene and the MFDB scene - right when the S2 will become available ....

 

So for how long do you think will the S System be able to argue the higher quality and thus the higher price? Or will it just drop down in price into regions of high end DSLRs and entry level MFDBs today - which is around the 10k€ range?

 

Time is slowly running out for Leica!

[Guest guy_mancuso]

I will have a P40 Plus at my disposal next week to test and also take on our Northern AZ workshop on the 16t of June. So Leica wanna pony up a S2 for me next week.

 

You have my address. :)

 

Victor seriously I laugh when I read your comments on the Mamiya glass, you have no idea what some of these D lenses can do. Your comments don't fly with people that actually shoot them, sorry. Urban myth my friend.

[ptomsu]

I will have a P40 Plus at my disposal next week to test and also take on our Northern AZ workshop on the 16t of June. So Leica wanna pony up a S2 for me next week.

 

You have my address.

 

Victor seriously I laugh when I read your comments on the Mamiya glass, you have no idea what some of these D lenses can do. Your comments don't fly with people that actually shoot them, sorry. Urban myth my friend.

 

Really looking forward to this P40+ and the new D lenses for Phamiya

 

The P40+ and the H31 are 2 very appealing MFDB solutions today, at least from the price point and technical specifications ...

 

Cannot wait to test them:D

[beamon]

you're going down the Rush Limbaugh/Karl Rove route - and Rush and Karl are losers, these days.

 

Ah geez, Andy, I come to various fora to enjoy the textual potato chips. I can't get enough of this, and now you go and introduce politics early in the thread.

 

I am obligated to mention that "losers" are often right! And, since I'm mentioning it, I might predict that the near term will prove Karl and Rush to be correct.

 

That said, I'm never going to be a candidate for S-2 or larger, since I no longer derive any income from photography. But, I am keenly interested in the direction that technology is taking us. My M8.2 for my happy snaps is quite sufficient, but oh to be 30 years younger.

 

...the next few years are going to be a bumpy ride. I hope that Leica is able to hold on...

 

I fear that statement is prophetic. We, at least in the US, have not yet even begun to feel the impact of our insane economic policies. When it all kicks in, I bet that the working pros will experience a drastic fall off in bookings as their clients hoard what resources they have and try to 'wait it out'!

 

S-2 and above will face a reluctance by the cash strapped pros as they, too, will be making do with their old gear. I fervently hope that I am wrong, but I've seen enough go by my face to know that these are very likely scenarios.

[charlesphoto99]

And, since I'm mentioning it, I might predict that the near term will prove Karl and Rush to be correct.

 

.

 

Woah! Talk about a shrinking market..... (and about time for all of our sakes).

[Gentleman Villain]

I fear that statement is prophetic. We, at least in the US, have not yet even begun to feel the impact of our insane economic policies. When it all kicks in, I bet that the working pros will experience a drastic fall off in bookings as their clients hoard what resources they have and try to 'wait it out'!

 

"wait it out"

 

That's exactly what I'm doing...I sold my studio in 2006 at the height of the real estate market and am hunkering down....ebayed all of my Elinchroms too. The root of the economic problem is a currency crisis. There won't be any improvements in economic conditions until a new US currency and/or series of stable regional currencies set to a global standard can be introduced. I hope that people aren't holding their breathe....because it's impossible for the economy to improve until the currency problems are solved. I'm not pessimistic.....I'm actually the opposite.... I think that there are great days ahead in the not too distant future....once this currency problem is solved the globe will be poised for a massive economic expansion previously unrivaled in human history. The best days are still ahead....hopefully Leica will hold on...I think they will

 

 

Just one man's opinion...other's are certainly free to disagree

[ptomsu]

I fear that statement is prophetic. We, at least in the US, have not yet even begun to feel the impact of our insane economic policies. When it all kicks in, I bet that the working pros will experience a drastic fall off in bookings as their clients hoard what resources they have and try to 'wait it out'!

 

S-2 and above will face a reluctance by the cash strapped pros as they, too, will be making do with their old gear. I fervently hope that I am wrong, but I've seen enough go by my face to know that these are very likely scenarios.

 

Very true folks!

 

I think we all (US and EU) have unfortunately not seen the real impact on economy from the current crisis. While economy might stabilize (and in some parts it is doing that already) we are still living in our old ways of thinking and approaching business. And this is the major flaw in my eyes, so whatever will allow an intermediate improvement does not mean that we (all our countries and organizations) have learned the right lessons from this crisis and thus another one - much bigger - will come a few years later.

 

And this will be the real challenge then. Believe me, ther need to be a lot more of these big companies and organizations lying dead on the floor before we all (and out governments) will start to understand the real issues - I would love to be wrong!

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Here folks all three backs being tested if interested P30+,P40+ and P45+

 

There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My - The GetDPI Workshop Forums

[markowich]

i agree with most of what you say, particularly that time is running out for leica. just one comment: i have tried sony+zeiss glass and D3x+best nikon glass (14-24mm, 24-70mm, 105mm VR) and the nikon beat the sony+zeiss combo even at low iso.

just give it a try. certainly there is difference between D3x and H3DII 50 (two meter wide prints look gorgeous) but for most practical purposes the D3x does the job. so the margin for the S2 is there but very small. peter

 

Victor,

 

while I agree with your thoughts about Leica glass compared to Phamiya lenses I must say that Zeiss glass is at least as good as Leica glass in my eyes at least.

 

Tried Zeiss lenses with the new Sony A900 - and this really rocks. Comes quite close to MF quality with Phamiya (not counting MP here) and I think it is because of the Zeiss quality maybe 60% and the quality of the A900 sensor at low ISO responsible for roughly the other 40%.

 

My point is, that the difference between a A900 with Zeiss glass and the S2 will definitely be there, but it is shrinking remarkably compared to what Canon and Nikon can deliver in the high resolution DSLR range with their lenses today.

 

So finally I would say that there is not a new replacement of the future S2, but a very serious competitor, especially if it comes to price/performance overall considerations

 

And - the market for the S2 is shrinking further. From one side because of the new FF DSLRs with high end glass and from the other side from the MFDBs and cameras getting much cheaper in the 31 - 40 MP range (H3D2 with 31MP back and Phamiya with P40+ back).

 

And - this is happening NOW, and in 6-9 months totally new challenges will be there from the DSLR scene and the MFDB scene - right when the S2 will become available ....

 

So for how long do you think will the S System be able to argue the higher quality and thus the higher price? Or will it just drop down in price into regions of high end DSLRs and entry level MFDBs today - which is around the 10k€ range?

 

Time is slowly running out for Leica!

[Alberti]

I'm afraid that no matter how good the S system is (even if it is really really good) if they price it over $20,000, for the body only, they will be in trouble. [] Just my .02. GD Whalen Photography

 

R10Dreamer, my hope is that what we have seen on the campaign "S2 has the quality for professionals" might have a lower range "S1 for amateurs", implying a follow-up - in the form of a dR10, not for dreams, but for keeps. So no CS in the bundle, focus confirmation for combining with a standard set of 'simple' lenses. Even where competition is allowed in to adopt the new flange to the market. such strategies have worked over and over again (expand a product network by connecting to other suppliers customer networks).

Me, I am liking my M8 more and more - love regained, I'll 'never' buy a 1D or D3. Enter S2? Only if utterly 'simple' - including a handsome fit to my "dR10 budget" .

Alberti