georg Posted July 6, 2009 Share #481 Posted July 6, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) "IMO the true reason to cancel the R10 is because it's too close an "internal" competition to the S2 in terms of resources, market etc." Yes, I think that was always a problem, the R-System isn't exactly positioned underneath the S-System but just a promise to film-times. How much do 56% increased sensor-size/mechanics cost, enough to justify another system with another bayonet? But a "classic" R10 would have been a promise to the system itself, too. It' not so much the body, it' the bayonet, a complete line of AF-R-lenses has to be designed! But with the success of the G1 and recent progresses in sensor/display-technology, another solution seemed possible: an EVIL-system, so according to the technological development they decided for a new order: not R10 and then M9 but M9 and then EVIL. !? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 6, 2009 Posted July 6, 2009 Hi georg, Take a look here S2 under pricing pressure. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
wildlightphoto Posted July 6, 2009 Share #482 Posted July 6, 2009 Both of your examples are anxiety not fear. Unless, of course, you want to make up your own definition of things. Fear or anxiety, it's still contagious. Either way it's a response to a problem that hasn't happened yet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted July 6, 2009 Share #483 Posted July 6, 2009 I can't speak about Hasselblad but Phase One already has the ZD, how difficult is it to give it an upgrade or just facelift? I’ve commented on the ZD before in this thread, but the ZD was really just another body for an existing MF system, not the first camera of a new system. Both the ZD and the S2 are cameras with larger than 35 mm sensors and a form factor similar to a 35 mm DSLR, but that’s were the similarity ends. I trust Phase One and Mamiya are busily improving on their existing system; they won’t bother spending resources on developing another system geared towards a smaller sensor. For a small vendor there is only so much they can do. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted July 6, 2009 Share #484 Posted July 6, 2009 Sorry have to disagree here . They can easily take the P40+ sensor and slap it into a integrated ZD body and make some improvements to it and use that as a second source to there separate backs and bodies. Phase One has proved over the last few months they have a lot of money backing them and a far cry from what many have thought. They basically own Mamiya now and just bought Leaf and there not going to give up any market share to anyone. I see a lot of aggressive products coming soon and Sinar just fired all there German employees as of this morning and F&H are going south. Hassy and Phase immediately have just become the only players at this moment until the S2 hits the streets. Being small means nothing when you have plenty of money to outsource the products you need. Actually less overhead and less employees is not a bad thing as folks think. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfarkas Posted July 6, 2009 Share #485 Posted July 6, 2009 Sorry have to disagree here . They can easily take the P40+ sensor and slap it into a integrated ZD body and make some improvements to it and use that as a second source to there separate backs and bodies. Phase One has proved over the last few months they have a lot of money backing them and a far cry from what many have thought. They basically own Mamiya now and just bought Leaf and there not going to give up any market share to anyone. I see a lot of aggressive products coming soon and Sinar just fired all there German employees as of this morning and F&H are going south. Hassy and Phase immediately have just become the only players at this moment until the S2 hits the streets. Being small means nothing when you have plenty of money to outsource the products you need. Actually less overhead and less employees is not a bad thing as folks think. Not sure how well financed they are or aren't. Or how well they are doing financially or not. Phase One is a private company and both the Mamiya deal and the Leaf deal were private transactions. Phase doesn't have to share their sales data or disclose the details of these recent deals. For all we know, they paid almost nothing for Leaf. Or, they bet the farm... Honestly, no one outside of the interested parties knows for sure. At least we know what Dr. Kaufmann brings to the table financially as all of the Leica transactions are public. In addition to buying up ~96.5% of Leica, he also owns 15 other companies, some of which are vertically integrated suppliers for Leica (like Weller who does precision machining of lens barrels). And we know that Leica does approximately 200 Million Euros in annual revenue. Many have criticized Phase for the LCD screen on the new P40+/P65+. New, cutting-edge backs, same 2.2" screen they've used for years. If they have the money to invest in Mamiya and Leaf, how about investing in new tooling for the latest backs? And, if they won't invest in a simple retool and LCD screen upgrade that their users have been asking for relentlessly (see LL forum), how can one expect them to invest in updating the ZD? Or, to develop a brand-new, from-the-gound-up, whiz-bang camera system? A year has already gone by from the announcement of leaf-shutter lenses and a "simple" vertical grip for the AFD. Surely, these are easier to bring to market than a redesigned, fully modern ZD or a totally redesigned camera system. I don't think any new camera project is simple or inexpensive, for any company, be it Phase/Mamiya, Canon, Nikon, or Leica. The possibility of a return needs to be there. If the biggest advantage Phase has is system flexibility with interchangeable backs, why would they go counter to that and offer an all-in-one DSLR? Just because Leica is doing it? As always, time will tell, but I think this next year will be very interesting. What impact will the S2 have on the MFDB market? Will Leica succeed in bringing in new users or will Leica's success merely draw market share away from Hassy and Phase? Will Phase's recent expansionism help maintain/grow market share or will the added costs and overhead burden them in a troubled market? David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander † Posted July 6, 2009 Share #486 Posted July 6, 2009 OK Phase and Hassleblad cant send in the troops but the attack on Leica as they all fight for share of a small market will be relentless. Is there room for three players, it seems not at the moment. Both Phase and Haslleblad have their own software solutions developed over many years. How will Leica tackle this, just bundle a copy of Lightroom? I think the abandonment by Phase of Leica S2 support in Cap1 is just a taster of the fallout that is to come. With the S2 Leica have entered a lion's den. In the DSLR market they would have been able to pursue their niche, just as they did in the days of film. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted July 6, 2009 Share #487 Posted July 6, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Not sure how well financed they are or aren't. Or how well they are doing financially or not. Phase One is a private company and both the Mamiya deal and the Leaf deal were private transactions. Phase doesn't have to share their sales data or disclose the details of these recent deals. For all we know, they paid almost nothing for Leaf. Or, they bet the farm... Honestly, no one outside of the interested parties knows for sure. At least we know what Dr. Kaufmann brings to the table financially as all of the Leica transactions are public. In addition to buying up ~96.5% of Leica, he also owns 15 other companies, some of which are vertically integrated suppliers for Leica (like Weller who does precision machining of lens barrels). And we know that Leica does approximately 200 Million Euros in annual revenue. Many have criticized Phase for the LCD screen on the new P40+/P65+. New, cutting-edge backs, same 2.2" screen they've used for years. If they have the money to invest in Mamiya and Leaf, how about investing in new tooling for the latest backs? And, if they won't invest in a simple retool and LCD screen upgrade that their users have been asking for relentlessly (see LL forum), how can one expect them to invest in updating the ZD? Or, to develop a brand-new, from-the-gound-up, whiz-bang camera system? A year has already gone by from the announcement of leaf-shutter lenses and a "simple" vertical grip for the AFD. Surely, these are easier to bring to market than a redesigned, fully modern ZD or a totally redesigned camera system. I don't think any new camera project is simple or inexpensive, for any company, be it Phase/Mamiya, Canon, Nikon, or Leica. The possibility of a return needs to be there. If the biggest advantage Phase has is system flexibility with interchangeable backs, why would they go counter to that and offer an all-in-one DSLR? Just because Leica is doing it? As always, time will tell, but I think this next year will be very interesting. What impact will the S2 have on the MFDB market? Will Leica succeed in bringing in new users or will Leica's success merely draw market share away from Hassy and Phase? Will Phase's recent expansionism help maintain/grow market share or will the added costs and overhead burden them in a troubled market? David David even shared by you when Hassy learned of the S2 they dropped there prices on the spot. If we think for 1 second Hassy and Phase are going to sit and play with themselves than we certainly would be fools to think that. The money Phase put into Mamiya is very significant and I will not say anymore on it. But I will bet right now we will see product before this year even comes to a close from both Hassy and Phase. Seriously Leica had a better chance going against Canon and Nikon in 35mm because they don't view Leica as any competition. Hassy and Phase do and Sinar just bit the dust this morning basically. It's a small market and i see this as the fight is on for survival. And your right you don't know the financial backing of Hassy and Phase so comparing it against Leica is meaningless. Leica also has tremendous overhead and invested R&D so they could be sitting in a really bad spot right now. David I worked for a fortune 100 company for many years and one division of it can be so far under the water that the other divisions are covering it and trust me the public NEVER knows about it and all they get is the overall numbers. Look at Jenoptik which on the surface looks to be doing okay and today the Sinar division just had all there German employees fired. Tomorrow who knows they might just shut that division down but Jenoptik still floats the boat. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptomsu Posted July 6, 2009 Share #488 Posted July 6, 2009 Well, I really hate to say this - BUT it could also happen that one day in the next months Leica will shut down their camera division and all what is coming as the new S System. As said, I really would hate this to see, as another German company would just bite the dust, but chances are there that it might happen. Especially if Leica continues this mad way of entering a new market segment without any good partners. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 6, 2009 Share #489 Posted July 6, 2009 Let's just wait and see. Nobody of us knows anything for a fact, so Calimero posts are not very informative either. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted July 6, 2009 Share #490 Posted July 6, 2009 I really hate to say this - BUT it could also happen that one day in the next months Leica will shut down their camera division and all what is coming as the new S System. I think I understand what you are saying, but people have been saying Leica can't survive for as long as I've been using their cameras. It may happen of course, but then again... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander † Posted July 6, 2009 Share #491 Posted July 6, 2009 One thing is for sure, there is a lot hanging on the S2 for Leica - which was a strategic decision. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted July 6, 2009 Share #492 Posted July 6, 2009 The question always come up with a parent company on how far to take a division in there company. Jenoptiks is in that position as we speak. They lost F&H to build the bodies for the Sinar backs. So the question comes up to them with lack luster Sinar sales how far do we go to find another camera body builder or take it on themselves or just say screw it and shut it down. Don't quote me on all those details but the point is how far does a parent company go and this is the question in every aspect of company business. I seen who I worked for over my 16 year period just shut the doors on so many projects it is frightening. Not to say Leica will do this as the parent and most likely will not since they have a lot tied up in the S2 right now but given the economy both in a local and global market this stuff will happen more often than not. If a division does not perform up to the expected margins than bye bye is much easier to do than throw more money at it. There just has been a lot of volatility in the MF market for several years and one reason I held out for as long as I did but this market is all over the place with doors closing and partnering than splitting off this and that it has been mind boggling. Recently it has not gotten any better but much worse . In basically a month or so we have major shifts in Leaf and now looks like Sinar. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ynp Posted July 6, 2009 Share #493 Posted July 6, 2009 It is interesting that people with no interest in the Leica s2, people who heavily invested in other MF systems, who enjoy very close relationship with other MFGs and even have access to some insider info became dominant posters on the s2 forum. The negativity and baseless speculations are a bit tiresome. I know that the Russian Leica dealer has a very long s2 waiting list. And they are asking whether we are interested in an Anthracite Leica M9 or a regular black one, in October. Yevgeny Moscow Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
like_no_other Posted July 6, 2009 Share #494 Posted July 6, 2009 Well, I really hate to say this - BUT it could also happen that one day in the next months Leica will shut down their camera division and all what is coming as the new S System. As said, I really would hate this to see, as another German company would just bite the dust, but chances are there that it might happen. Especially if Leica continues this mad way of entering a new market segment without any good partners. BUT it could be as well that Mr. Kaufmann is already sitting in Salzburg laughing about Hasselblad and Phase who are burning their profits by selling their products for bargain prices while he knows that Leica will be able to sell it's new product for a premium price. H & P1: same number of units sold, low prices, low profit and NOT the expected rise in sold units Leica S2: demand not price sensitive, units sold as planned, Price and profit high as planned. It could be that H&P1 kill each other while Leica will be the clear winner. Just another scenario. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted July 6, 2009 Share #495 Posted July 6, 2009 It is interesting that people with no interest in the Leica s2, people who heavily invested in other MF systems, who enjoy very close relationship with other MFGs and even have access to some insider info became dominant posters on the s2 forum. The negativity and baseless speculations are a bit tiresome. I know that the Russian Leica dealer has a very long s2 waiting list. And they are asking whether we are interested in an Anthracite Leica M9 or a regular black one, in October. Yevgeny Moscow Interesting you mention that when i am actually quite interested in buying a S2 , the issue is there is no reality being spoken here from some. Folks need to know what is truly going on in the market than closing there eyes and opening there wallet and not knowing what they are getting into. Also there is a old saying people have more money than sense. I have more sense than money and mouths to feed. I will go with reality any day than wishing on a dream. Here is the reality From BJP Title: Franke & Heidecke: Sinar reacts to news of closure Feature: Daily News Date: 6 July 2009 Sinar, one of the medium format camera makers directly affected by the closure of Franke & Heidecke, is still studying plans regarding its Hy6 camera, BJP has learnt On 04 July, BJP revelead that Franke & Heidecke, the German manufacturer responsible for 6x6 format camera bodies for both Leaf and Sinar, had told its employees it was to close. Speaking to BJP, a Sinar spokeswoman reacted to the news: 'Unfortunatly the final decision about the Sinar Hy6 camera is still pending,' she says. 'Sinar is still confident this product will continue. A final decision is expected around end of July.' Sinar refused to comment further. Leaf, whose AFi system is based on the same camera body as the Hy6, has yet to return calls and emails for comment. For more updates, check bjp-online.com/news. Also after that report e-mails were sent out Sinar Germany fired there employees. Opening a web shop , Obviously more details to follow Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
like_no_other Posted July 6, 2009 Share #496 Posted July 6, 2009 It is interesting that people with no interest in the Leica s2, people who heavily invested in other MF systems, who enjoy very close relationship with other MFGs and even have access to some insider info became dominant posters on the s2 forum. The negativity and baseless speculations are a bit tiresome. I know that the Russian Leica dealer has a very long s2 waiting list. And they are asking whether we are interested in an Anthracite Leica M9 or a regular black one, in October. Yevgeny Moscow Yevgeny, may I ask you to forward my wish for an anthracite M9 (if FF only)? Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/82842-s2-under-pricing-pressure/?do=findComment&comment=954745'>More sharing options...
carstenw Posted July 6, 2009 Share #497 Posted July 6, 2009 Guy, Sinar, a Swiss company, closed Sinar Germany, a marketing branch. This is a cost-trimming measure, but is a perfectly normal move in a hard economy. Sinar is alive and well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted July 6, 2009 Share #498 Posted July 6, 2009 Phase One and Leica seem to have broken their agreement on distribution. Sorry, only in Spanish for the moment: Leica asegura que la ruptura con Phase One no afectará al desarrollo de la S2 Does Phase One see Leica as a strong competitor? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted July 6, 2009 Share #499 Posted July 6, 2009 Here, in English: British Journal of Photography - Phase One and Leica scrap 10-month old partnership [update] http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk/news/Leica_Ssystem_on_track_despite_Phase_One_split_report_news_285541.html R. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted July 6, 2009 Share #500 Posted July 6, 2009 Guy, Sinar, a Swiss company, closed Sinar Germany, a marketing branch. This is a cost-trimming measure, but is a perfectly normal move in a hard economy. Sinar is alive and well. Did I say any different and where is it actually written it was a cost -trimming measure. I have not seen any of that mentioned but your take on it. My comment Also after that report e-mails were sent out Sinar Germany fired there employees. Opening a web shop , Obviously more details to follow Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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