S2 under pricing pressure

[stevesanacore]

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It's like the comparison between APS-C sensors and 35mm full frame sensors, the cropped frame sensors will always be a lot cheaper than full frame sensors.

 

I don't think the 645 "full frame" MFDBs' prices will come down anytime soon while you see the avalanche of 33x44 or 36x48 prices.

 

By selling the cropped sensor sizes such as 33x44, 36x48 or 30x45 at about $20k a piece, these companies still have a lot of profit to make.

 

After all, it's a market with very limited capacity, the more bulls to fight, the more bloodshed we'll see.

 

I think it's a market with limited buyers ONLY because the prices are still so high.

 

If the MF prices were in line with hi end DSLR's they would sell them by the truckload. And the market would probably go back to where it was when we all shot film. In the areas of my work I would guess it was a 50/50 split between 35mm and MF with film. Among the people I know, It's now gone 100% DSLR.

[almoore]

I understand the desire that people have for the S2 to be a big success for Leica, but it's naive to imagine that it has the competition "blinking" fearfully in anticipation.

 

There's no getting away from the fact that this is the worst possible time for Leica to try to break into a whole new market sector. I don't believe there are enough rich hobbyists in the world to justify the S2, and when it comes to the professional market nobody's buying right now. The current financial situation is bad for everybody but it's catastrophic for the majority of working photographers - editorial rates have sat at the USD500 level for nearly two decades and (the admittedly much higher) commercial rates are also badly sliding. Even the very best and most successful photographers are finding things hard and the last thing they're looking to do is plough a big chunk of their reduced earnings into a new and untried system from a company that has a distinctly shaky recent track record (the terrible unreliability of the M8; the crippled functionality of the MP meaning that the buyer has to go the a la carte route to get a rewind crank).

 

Working photographers never embraced the R series as they did (for certain applications) the M, so, even if times were good, it's hard to see why they'd spring for the S. It's a niche that nobody was asking for.

 

It's the M5 all over again. Only this time Leica might not survive.

[Gentleman Villain]

Leica is soon releasing one of the most promising professional camera systems that I've ever encountered in my career...and all people do is complain. Hopefully, Leica isn't paying attention to any of this forum nonsense. Yeah the economy is bad...yeah the camera is gonna be expensive...bla bla bla. What a bunch of whiners. I mean c'mon seriously...this is ridiculous.

[ptomsu]

Folks,

 

just saw a post on Leica Rumors and the picture you see there fro someone holding this thing in his hands makes me feel that the S2 is VERY big. Especially deep (front to back).

 

If this is true (not sure how big that guy's hands were) then a normal MFDB solution is not really bigger, but I would think easier to handle

 

SO the price might not b the only issue

[Gentleman Villain]

I saw the S2 +70mm lens at PMA and thought it was very similar in size to my old Kodak DCS520+24-70L lens. That's a really small package for the kind of punch that the Leica should be packin' considering that my Kodak only had about 2 megapixels and cost about the same back then as the S2 should cost now when released.

 

The S2 is a very elegant little package for the punch that it's packin'...it's not too big...it's very nicely sized

[jaapv]

I understand the desire that people have for the S2 to be a big success for Leica, but it's naive to imagine that it has the competition "blinking" fearfully in anticipation.

 

There's no getting away from the fact that this is the worst possible time for Leica to try to break into a whole new market sector. I don't believe there are enough rich hobbyists in the world to justify the S2, and when it comes to the professional market nobody's buying right now. The current financial situation is bad for everybody but it's catastrophic for the majority of working photographers - editorial rates have sat at the USD500 level for nearly two decades and (the admittedly much higher) commercial rates are also badly sliding. Even the very best and most successful photographers are finding things hard and the last thing they're looking to do is plough a big chunk of their reduced earnings into a new and untried system from a company that has a distinctly shaky recent track record (the terrible unreliability of the M8; the crippled functionality of the MP meaning that the buyer has to go the a la carte route to get a rewind crank).

 

Working photographers never embraced the R series as they did (for certain applications) the M, so, even if times were good, it's hard to see why they'd spring for the S. It's a niche that nobody was asking for.

 

It's the M5 all over again. Only this time Leica might not survive.

Was the M5 a medium format camera?:confused: I never knew...

[Gentleman Villain]

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He isn't comparing the S2 to the M5 in terms of format. His opinion is that the S2 is geared towards a niche market that doesn't exist in a similar way that the M5 failed to receive a large audience. I totally disagree...there is a huge potential for the S2 and the market is salivating for exactly this type of integrated MF camera system that was designed solely for digital from the "ground up" ...massive potential...just a matter of getting the word out and getting the price right over time. NOthing happens over night....and it could take the S2 quite some time to catch on. But it definitely has massive potential

[jaapv]

I did kind of know that, I guess It was to express my amazement that the gentleman joined this forum just to drop this pearl of wisdom....

[almoore]

Sorry Jaap, I didn't realize that this was your private forum. Obviously, if I'd been aware of that fact I'd have checked first that my wisdom was up to your obviously high standards.

 

Gentleman Villain, maybe you can elaborate which sector of the professional market is so buoyant that it's "salivating for exactly this type of integrated MF camera". Or do you believe that there are enough wealthy weekend warriors to make it a viable system?

[carstenw]

The Leica S2 is roughly the size of a D700:

 

David Farkas Photography Blog: Photokina 2008 - Day 1 - All things Leica

 

[carstenw]

I understand the desire that people have for the S2 to be a big success for Leica, but it's naive to imagine that it has the competition "blinking" fearfully in anticipation.

 

No, I don't think so. The trump card of the clunky medium format cameras (of which I own several) has always been the image quality. The Leica S2 puts that same image quality (or better, knowing Leica) into a 35mm-FF form factor, which could up-end the MF segment.

 

We will have to wait to see if it works out that way, but there is nothing naïve about believing that it might.

[Gentleman Villain]

I did kind of know that, I guess It was to express my amazement that the gentleman joined this forum just to drop this pearl of wisdom....

 

after reading his 2nd post, I now agree that you were right to give him a hard time

 

Wow...you saw that coming a mile away

[jaapv]

after reading his 2nd post, I now agree that you were right to give him a hard time

 

Wow...you saw that coming a mile away

:D

The giveaway is a first post with a registration date a few years ago; we had quite a few of those lately And of course the presentation of a personal opinion as "the fact is..." But who knows, I may be happily be proven wrong:)

[Gentleman Villain]

:D

The giveaway is a first post with a registration date a few years ago; we had quite a few of those lately And of course the presentation of a personal opinion as "the fact is..."

 

wow that is totally true...I've never noticed that before but you're right...dpreview and some other joints are filled with "the fact is"

 

I bow to your wisdom accumulated from 9000+ posts of experience

[paulmoore]

Sorry Jaap, I didn't realize that this was your private forum. Obviously, if I'd been aware of that fact I'd have checked first that my wisdom was up to your obviously high standards.

 

Gentleman Villain, maybe you can elaborate which sector of the professional market is so buoyant that it's "salivating for exactly this type of integrated MF camera". Or do you believe that there are enough wealthy weekend warriors to make it a viable system?

 

commercial photography is not going away.. technically the S2 would work well in many areas..maybe not yours..or your way of working.. I think you are making a mistake by assuming the S2 is similar to the R line and the lack of professional use.. The S2 is not like anything else, at the time of release there is no other camera in its class..period. For you to predict its failure just exposes the shape and size of the blinders that you have strapped on.

No professional can evaluate whether this camera system will work for them until a price has been established...until then you might try to be more open minded.

[almoore]

What a strange place this is with people congratulating one another on giving others a "hard time" (don't flatter yourselves) for having the audacity to offer an opinion that doesn't chime with their own - although I guess that's a great deal easier than answering the question I posed to you.

 

I'll happily decline from posting in the future now that the nature of the forum has been spelt out to me. There's no way I'll ever have the time or inclination to match the deluge of immature smiley/scowling face littered posts that Jaap offers.

 

I've no idea what the reference to it being a "giveaway" that I subscribed some time back has, but, for the record, I initially subscribed when I was given a loaner M8 to test. I was curious to see what others made of a camera that, to me, in no way matched the qualities I liked so much about film Ms.

 

Keep your sad little masturbatory forum to yourselves. You're welcome to it...

[marcusperkins]

Whatever happened to the Mamiya ZD?

 

That was effectively the precursor to the S2

 

I remember doing a job with a guy who was using the ZD - it was actually a nice camera to hold, and small for MF, with a great viewfinder, and ran at 1.5 fps. Was it ever developed further? Can Leica claim to be the first in this area (if indeed they are claiming that).

 

Just curious as to why it never really took off.

[marcusperkins]

Here it is - photo from 2006 (dpreview.com)... it felt about the same size as the 1Ds I was using at the time.

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[jaapv]

What a strange place this is with people congratulating one another on giving others a "hard time" (don't flatter yourselves) for having the audacity to offer an opinion that doesn't chime with their own - although I guess that's a great deal easier than answering the question I posed to you.

 

I'll happily decline from posting in the future now that the nature of the forum has been spelt out to me. There's no way I'll ever have the time or inclination to match the deluge of immature smiley/scowling face littered posts that Jaap offers.

 

I've no idea what the reference to it being a "giveaway" that I subscribed some time back has, but, for the record, I initially subscribed when I was given a loaner M8 to test. I was curious to see what others made of a camera that, to me, in no way matched the qualities I liked so much about film Ms.

 

Keep your sad little masturbatory forum to yourselves. You're welcome to it...

Interesting. A "loaner M8" on 11-11-2006, six days before the camera became available on the open market. And the fact which was really an opinion has turned into a question now.....

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[jrc]

I think almoore is very likely correct. We will see. The Leica partisans on this forum seem to have a very hard time separating quality from marketing. He never said the camera would be a bad one; he suggested the company might have a hard time selling it. I haven't used a MF camera in a decade, and then it was an RZ, one of the clunkiest of the clunky. People (including some famous pros) put up with it because it was relatively cheap and thoroughly reliable -- cheap and reliable both being important. You see where I'm heading, and where almoore was going -- Leica has a reputation for being expensive and (digitally) unreliable. If I were a pro and I was looking at the situation purely from a business standpoint, as opposed to a romantic standpoint, the Leica is the last camera I would consider. People who have struggled for years and sometimes decades to put together a business aren't likely to take a major risk with something new, more expensive, and not noticeably better. They *might* go for it later, if it proves in other hands to be radically better than the other systems...but to tell the truth, I doubt that is the conclusion that will be reached. I think the conclusion will be much like the one that the world has reached with the M8 -- a small coterie of people who like rangefinders think it's wonderful; the rest don't care. Go to a guy with a Nikon D3x and tell him that you shoot an M8, his likely reaction will be, "That's great. Is there a cab stand around here?" The world is not waiting for this camera with bated breath, though Leica fans may be. Right now, I think it's about 70-30 to be a marketing disaster. But, as people have said, we will see.

 

If there is one seam of light in the S2 world it is the amateur, who doesn' t have to worry too much about selling pictures, so won't be so critically worried about absolute reliability or cost. A lot of people with M8s actually have enough invested in Leica gear that they could sell it off and buy an S2 and a couple of lenses. Maybe they will do that, or perhaps they just have enough money that they can buy the system outright. If they get a few hundred cameras out there, and the results are spectacular, perhaps the S2 will find a niche. I'm skeptical.