sdai Posted March 25, 2009 Share #41 Posted March 25, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Shakes head.... Why did you buy them, then? Don't tell me for investment purposes Your negative thoughts re the R10 are legendary on this forum. I look forward to your thoughts when it arrives next year My last R purchase happened in about 4, or 5 years ago and to be honest, I've never paid a premium price for anything ... before the DMR, almost everything is dead cheap even when you buy brand new with full passport warranty. Just a minor correction by the way, my negative thoughts are always re the S2, S and M together just don't sound good. If the R10 really arrives in 2010, I'll just buy one, if it's good you'll hear my praises, if it's bad, they're bound to lose some faces. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 25, 2009 Posted March 25, 2009 Hi sdai, Take a look here The R Is Completely Dead IMO . I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
andybarton Posted March 25, 2009 Share #42 Posted March 25, 2009 Jeff, the quoted words from Dr. Kaufmann was said long AFTER the interview with Harberts. There're forum members telling that Harberts herself has been transferred "back" to the S2 project. Of course, if they can pull off a S2, the "R10" should be a piece of cake but, they've just said in the announcement that a R no longer makes any economic sense. The R that doesn't make economic sense is the R9. You know that's what they are talking about, as well as everyone else. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgcd Posted March 25, 2009 Share #43 Posted March 25, 2009 It's now up on the English web-site: 24/03/2009 For more than 40 years the Leica R-System has played an important role within the Leica product portfolio. However new camera developments have significantly affected the sales of Leica R cameras and lenses resulting in a dramatic decrease in the number sold. Sadly therefore there is no longer an economic basis on which to keep the Leica R-System in the Leica production programme. At the beginning of March 2009 authorised Leica photo dealers were informed by Leica Camera AG that the production of the SLR camera, Leica R 9 as well as R-lenses would therefore be discontinued. In due course the technical innovations derived from the newly developed professional system SLR camera Leica S 2 will, we believe, generate a basis for new system solutions for the future. We will obviously keep you informed of these developments at the appropriate time. Leica R-system products are still available at some authorised Leica dealers and in addition a significant second-hand trade confirms the continued use of Leica R products, therefore, the information regarding the Leica R system will continue to be available on our web site . When I mentioned this on another thread, a couple of weeks ago, after being informed of these developments, people reacted with a great deal of aggressiveness. But there you have it now... time to seriously look at the S2...At this rate they might as well post back the information on the DMR too... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsh Posted March 25, 2009 Share #44 Posted March 25, 2009 Oh well. I will just keep my lenses and my cameras and continue to use them. The S2 will, most likely, be way out of my price range, and if the DMR fails at some point, I can still shoot film - happily. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
miami91 Posted March 25, 2009 Share #45 Posted March 25, 2009 Clearly none of us can say with any certainty what the future holds, but it would not be in keeping with Leica's track record (or its brand attributes of providing lasting value) to completely abandon R users. So either the S2 will be much more affordable than we expect, and they'll offer some sort of adapter for R lenses (even if performance is compromised), or there will likely be a smaller, more affordable version compatible with R lenses. Personally, I could care less if it's called R10. If Leica sees fit to do a name change to signal a break from the manual focus, film based R tradition, do any of us really care, so long as we get compatibility for (at least some of) our legacy glass? Jeff. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
R10dreamer Posted March 25, 2009 Share #46 Posted March 25, 2009 Clearly none of us can say with any certainty what the future holds, but it would not be in keeping with Leica's track record (or its brand attributes of providing lasting value) to completely abandon R users. So either the S2 will be much more affordable than we expect, and they'll offer some sort of adapter for R lenses (even if performance is compromised), or there will likely be a smaller, more affordable version compatible with R lenses. Personally, I could care less if it's called R10. If Leica sees fit to do a name change to signal a break from the manual focus, film based R tradition, do any of us really care, so long as we get compatibility for (at least some of) our legacy glass? Jeff. Leica has a legitimate reason to cancel all of its equipment heritage. Digital. Digital changed the game and everyone needs to finally realize this. Film is going going going gone and every camera manufacturer now has the ability to start fresh and disregard their generational obligations. I just think Leica, because of its limited resources, was able to do this in an obvious way. My .02. GD Whalen Photography Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted March 25, 2009 Share #47 Posted March 25, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) What is it about "the R10 is coming next year" that people find hard to understand? And how any sane person can claim that an EVF is in anyway an acceptable substitute for a real viewfinder (whether M or R) beggars belief They will be cheaper and simpler to manufacture so that will drive the DSLRs at the low end just as the optical viewfinders have been dropped from many p&s cameras. As they improve, they'll be in more and more cameras. "That's the facts Jack!" And "Bob's your uncle." Eventually they'll be the Mac Daddy. Also consider that more and more DSLRs shoot hi def video - best done on an EVF. I don't know if EVFs will progress to the point of being as good or better than an optical viewfinder. Parity will be a bit easier to achieve on an SLR which currently uses a groundglass. But they are unlikely to develop an EVF that has the displays the brightness range that the human eye gets in any optical finder. (SLR or rangefinder.) But there is no reason that whatever camera comes out couldn't have a rangefinder/optical viewfinder and live view on the LCD. Once the camera has live view and an HDMI socket, all kinds of accessory EVFs, video viewfinder transmitters for remote cameras and various displays could be sold and used as options. This would be something like having a single body that could be used as a rangefinder, slr or as a view camera. A true system camera platform. The advantage of live view combined with a rangefinder is that the rangefinder and live view could be used simultaneously. With a DSLR, when you turn on live view, the optical view through the lens is gone. A mirror less camera would also be smaller. When used in live view mode there is no difference between an SLR and a rangefinder body. So this would take away some of the advantages that SLRs have over a Leica M. But apparently just knowing that the M could be used in a way other than by putting one's eye up against an optical viewfinder is abhorrent to some. After shooting a few assignments using live view last week and yesterday, I will say that it is much easier to judge the light distribution of a photo by looking at the live view display on the very very good LCD that is on my camera. In other words I could easily tell what areas would be too bright or too dark. The same will be true with an EVF. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mooky Posted March 26, 2009 Share #48 Posted March 26, 2009 As mentioned in previous posts; much of this has been known already. I commend Leica for sticking with the reflex line as long as they have - given with the various owners, it's surprising it made it this far. It's a shame the Leica/Leitz Board at the time (early 70's) decided not to follow-through with the 'invention' of auto-focus. If they had, the whole industry would have evolved differently. But they didn't and it didn't. I would point to that decision as the early turning point for the Leica reflex line - and Leica suffered for it since then. In the meantime I have to agree that 35mm film camera production is nearly over but that FILM is not. The future 'R' line of course will be digital and that's fine and I welcome it. But I'll keep using transparency film while I have an S2 or R10. For those of us that have used R glass it's still a fine optical and mechanical standard. Once more; just think, in the early 70's Leica/Leitz showed a working auto-focus prototype. Oh, what could have been. Forward to the future. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted March 26, 2009 Share #49 Posted March 26, 2009 Once more; just think, in the early 70's Leica/Leitz showed a working auto-focus prototype. Oh, what could have been. Forward to the future. I am not sure if their version was viable. Consider they missed the boat on SLRs, they missed the boat on AF, they missed the boat on digital - well maybe they jumped in the water and swam to that one. Let's hope they are not missing the boat when it comes to making some cameras that will be in demand in the future. In my country we have an expression, "Three boats and you're out." We'll see how it pans out. They were fortunate to have in the M, a camera system that people bought even if it didn't evolve very much. Since they are going for additional markets, they'll have to make state of the art competitive models. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
redbaron Posted March 26, 2009 Share #50 Posted March 26, 2009 I love these threads! They flush out all the bleaters, so editing my ignore list is so much easier. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkCambridgeshire Posted March 26, 2009 Share #51 Posted March 26, 2009 We should forget about reflex mirrors and many of the retrofocus lenses and realize that TTL viewing can be achieved electronically as in the G-1 but with a full frame sensor and smaller lenses ... and with adaptors to use existing reflex camera lenses eg R lenses. Without the mirror box the interchangeable lens camera is capable of being designed much smaller and lighter and with fewer moving parts. In the not too distant future the mirror box will be obsolete as will many of the existing DSLRs. Just a matter of time. Cheers dunk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuny Posted March 26, 2009 Share #52 Posted March 26, 2009 Alan - I too expect SLRs as we know them to disappear, with mirror boxes being replaced by electronics. However, I do take a small exception to your maintaining that when this happens, the advantages of an SLR vs. a rangefinder are moot. I still see the advantages of an electronic (non-mirror box) “SLR” in that scenario of being able to use a much wider range of focal lengths than via a rangefinder. The change in many ways will be for rangefinder users, who will then be able to view the world in electronic rangefinder fashion, but have the ability to use many more focal lengths without framelines and parallax distortion. I see an evolution to essentially a hybrid of SLR and RF. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted March 26, 2009 Share #53 Posted March 26, 2009 We should forget about reflex mirrors and many of the retrofocus lenses and realize that TTL viewing can be achieved electronically as in the G-1 but with a full frame sensor and smaller The question then becomes how many people would be happy with an electronic viewfinder - and all of the issues associated with it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffWright Posted March 26, 2009 Share #54 Posted March 26, 2009 Indeed, and I'd guess that there are _far_ more Leica M users shooting film than using M8s. More likely far more Leica M's sitting unused in closets and in shrinkwrapped boxes in vaults, IMHO Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkCambridgeshire Posted March 26, 2009 Share #55 Posted March 26, 2009 The question then becomes how many people would be happy with an electronic viewfinder - and all of the issues associated with it. How many people were satisfied with digital cameras when they were first marketed? Problems and issues are addressed as technology improves and so hopefully things can get better. In a few years time I would not be surprised if all new TTL digital cameras managed without a mirror ... but can only happen if the electronic equivalent is better. Cheers dunk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted March 26, 2009 Share #56 Posted March 26, 2009 Alan - I too expect SLRs as we know them to disappear, with mirror boxes being replaced by electronics. However, I do take a small exception to your maintaining that when this happens, the advantages of an SLR vs. a rangefinder are moot. I still see the advantages of an electronic (non-mirror box) “SLR” in that scenario of being able to use a much wider range of focal lengths than via a rangefinder. The change in many ways will be for rangefinder users, who will then be able to view the world in electronic rangefinder fashion, but have the ability to use many more focal lengths without framelines and parallax distortion. I see an evolution to essentially a hybrid of SLR and RF. I am not sure if we have any disagreement here. I'd leave on the rangefinder and optical viewfinder - for those who want it. But the camera could easily have a clip on EVF that makes it just like an SLR that has EVF. Eventually cameras won't have shutters either. And I certainly can see the viewfinder being easily separated from the camera - either wireless or corded. You can add a remote LCD today. The 5DII cries out for an accessory EVF to facilitate shooting in video mode. Someone will surely make one soon. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted March 26, 2009 Share #57 Posted March 26, 2009 The question then becomes how many people would be happy with an electronic viewfinder - and all of the issues associated with it. Some people won't like them until they get better. That is why the optical viewfinders are still around. But if you are shooting still objects, such as architecture, scenics, or products, and especially if you are working from a tripod, live view on the LCD and an EVF will probably work better for you. Having the ability to zoom in 5 or 10 proved a pretty dramatic feature to me. I could judge focus more accurately than I ever could with any camera. Back to Leica M, I've been beating this horse for a while... If they simply add live view and an optional clip on EVF to the M and keep the rangefinder, they'll keep what is currently great about the M and all of its legacy lenses. But this will make the camera into a great tool for various kinds of photography that were never traditionally produced with Leica Ms. And if they design the system and interface right, the clip on EVF can be replaced by better models in the future. In the past, Leica made various models of the M - even ones without viewfinders or rangefinders - M1 and MD. So this isn't such a departure for them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
redbaron Posted March 26, 2009 Share #58 Posted March 26, 2009 Mmmm... A clip on EVF on an M. Would that be like adding a digital display to a Rolex? Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/80419-the-r-is-completely-dead-imo/?do=findComment&comment=853737'>More sharing options...
AlanG Posted March 27, 2009 Share #59 Posted March 27, 2009 Mmmm... A clip on EVF on an M. Would that be like adding a digital display to a Rolex? No it would be like bringing a 55 year old camera into the 21st century. It seems to me they have already turned it into an electronic camera with a built in LCD. So why not object to that also? Maybe you could alter your view and think of it as paddle shifters on a Ferrari. I can't see why this idea disturbs people so much. If you don't like the clip on EVF don't buy it. Just use the rangefinder. If enough people feel that way, it won't sell very well. A lot of Leica users probably didn't buy the Visoflex. Did you think it was wrong for them to offer it? At one time, E. Leitz tried to make the camera system as versatile as possible. That truly is their heritage not some kind of misplaced desire to maintain an illusion that it is some kind of mechanical wonder that has reached perfection of design and can never be altered. Well they stopped making a film SLR and they don't have a 35mm DSLR, so with live view and a clip on EVF, an M digital could kill two birds with one stone. Consider that the reason the Ms fell out of favor with many pros and others was its lack of versatility. Now there may be a relatively easy method to make the system versatile again. There is another problem that live view and EVFs will cause Leica. Those cameras will not have the noise and vibration of a moving mirror, taking away a rangefinder advantage. The future will come whether you like it or not. Leica may or may not be a part of it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
redbaron Posted March 27, 2009 Share #60 Posted March 27, 2009 I just realised that you may be referring to an M8, Alan. In which case I can understand it would not be too technically difficult to install such an EVF. Why anyone would want to is another matter. But, if you're talking about an MP or M7, you're dealing in pure fantasy. Is this what you have in mind? Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/80419-the-r-is-completely-dead-imo/?do=findComment&comment=853918'>More sharing options...
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