gonzo Posted March 23, 2009 Share #1 Posted March 23, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hello all, Well the title sorta addresses the problem that I am having. I have a Leica M3 tried to attach the lens and trust me I know how to do this. I have done it many times before with my Leicaflex SL. and I've attached the lens on other M Leica's. I've properly aligned the little red dots and turn gently clockwise but the telltale click is not happening. In fact the lens doesn't engage in the bayonet at all. Is there something totally dumb that I have overlooked??? I did remember to depress the lens release button on the side as well. I'd really appreciate any suggestions. Thanks! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 23, 2009 Posted March 23, 2009 Hi gonzo, Take a look here Leica M3 bayonet defect?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
doubice Posted March 23, 2009 Share #2 Posted March 23, 2009 Hi 'Gonzo', From your description, this is how I understand your problem: You have a Leica M lens that will attach correctly to other Leica M bodies but, will not lock on that particular M3. Is that the case? When you say that "In fact the lens doesn't engage in the bayonet at all" do you mean that the lens will not turn in the bayonet at all or, it will turn but will not lock? Best, Jan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gonzo Posted March 24, 2009 Author Share #3 Posted March 24, 2009 Hello Jan, Thanks for your help. The best I can describe the problem is that I set the lens on the mount, line up the red dots, try to turn it clockwise and it will not engage at all. In that it will not turn in the bayonet at all. The strange thing is that the camera came with a generic bayonet-type body cap which works. Just for the sake of comparison, it turns and locks in exactly the way that the lens normally does. I know we are talking about a piece of plastic but I can't figure out why the lens doesn't work. I have tried more than one lens. Both do not work. I do not have another M body to try the lenses on, unfortunately. I'm really at a loss. My option is to take it to the local Leica store. I hope that it is only a dumb oversight on my part but I have the feeling something needs repairs... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted March 24, 2009 Share #4 Posted March 24, 2009 Which lens are you trying to fit? Can you post photos of the mount/lens? (are you sure you're lining up the right 'red dots' and it is an M lens?) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
doubice Posted March 24, 2009 Share #5 Posted March 24, 2009 Hello ‘Gonzo’, The fact that the plastic cap fits is really not that important; as you say – it is just plastic. I thought however, that you said the lens fit properly on other Leica M bodies, but would not fit your M3. Is that indeed the case? Did you just buy the lens and what lens is it? Or - did you just buy the camera? Do other lenses fit on the M3? Are there any signs of damage to the wings of the lens bayonet? Answering these simple questions may narrow the possibility of being able to diagnose to problem ‘over the net’….. There is a possibility that the lens’ bayonet mount and the camera bayonet mount are at the extreme plus and minus ends of their manufacturing tolerances. This happens very rarely but could be the reason for the problems you are having in mounting the lens. If you can answer the above questions, I may be able to offer a better diagnosis. Best, Jan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted March 24, 2009 Share #6 Posted March 24, 2009 Unsure from your description. Is the lens settling all the way into the camera's opening? The flat part of the camera bayonet should be in contact with the flat part of the lens bayonet all the way around. If that doesn't happen, you need to figure out what is blocking it. If the lens settles properly into the camera mount but won't turn, then some part of the mount is blocking it. It's possible that someone dropped the lens and damaged the lens mount. Try tracing its circumference with the fleshy part of a finger or thumb. Usually this kind of damage results in one end of one of the lens flanges being bent upward toward the optics. Since it won't turn at all, it will be the leading edge of the flange that is damaged. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
EJohnE Posted March 25, 2009 Share #7 Posted March 25, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) I hope I am simply being stupid when I suggest that the M3 mount may not be actually an M3 mount. If a generic body cap fits perfectly, do try that cap on another M body. I have a cap which came with a R Leica, and which is a rough fit, as it is actually for (I think) a Pentax or Konica body. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted March 25, 2009 Share #8 Posted March 25, 2009 Good point, John. I think it might also be possible that someone removed the lens mount and then put it back incorrectly, so that matching the red dots doesn't match the bayonets properly. There are a lot of possibilities. As James said above, seeing a couple pictures could at least put us on the right track. Would that be possible, gonzo? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted March 25, 2009 Share #9 Posted March 25, 2009 Good point, John. I think it might also be possible that someone removed the lens mount and then put it back incorrectly, so that matching the red dots doesn't match the bayonets properly. There are a lot of possibilities. As James said above, seeing a couple pictures could at least put us on the right track. Would that be possible, gonzo? If I had to bet for an explanation, I'd bet for the above... an old M3 is probable has been repaired, flange removed and remounted the wrong way, i.e. rotated in respect to the right position : it is possible, the screws that fit the flange to the body are evenly spaced (75 degrees, I'd say): in this wrong position, a simple device as a plastic cap can be mounted, a lens not at all. Better not to make other tentatives befor to have the mount inspected. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
elgenper Posted March 25, 2009 Share #10 Posted March 25, 2009 Start by looking for a service seal on the body mount. It is black or red wax that fills the top screw cavity of the mount (12 o´clock position), and has a stamped letter or symbol as a relief in the wax. All authorized Leica mechanics have a personal stamp, and always apply a seal after service; it is impossible to dismantle the camera without removing the seal, so the absence of one is a sure sign that someone has tampered with it. OTOH, if there is a genuine seal, it is very unlikely that the camera mount is at fault (unless it has suffered impact damage from a fall or knock). Personally, I wouldn´t even consider buying an unsealed Leica except as a source for spare parts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gonzo Posted March 26, 2009 Author Share #11 Posted March 26, 2009 Wow! Thanks kindly for all the help! Let me start from the top: I am attempting to fit an M Summilux lens onto the M3. The camera and lens came as a set from a private seller that I found through a somewhat local ad. Same country, different city. So it was a long distance purchase. I wish I could post photos but the only digital camera I own is the one that is integrated with my iPhone :-) If I could figure out a way to do it I certainly will. I do promise I have lined up the red dots as I mentioned in the other post I have done this many times with my Leicaflex SL. I know how the bayonet system works on a Leica (I hope!). There is no sign of damage to the lens. I tried another M lens and same story. I had the feeling that it was the mount itself. I took it to the Leica shop and they were able to fit my lens on another body (in this case a lovely MP). It seems that for some reason there is a slight bed in the mount but I have no idea how this could've happened. It has the original black wax Leica seal, the camera has never been opened. Is it possible that someone tried to jam the lens in and bent the mount? I am the second owner. The person that sold it to me inherited the camera. I only wonder how the inside of a lens mount could be damaged without the body showing other signs of misuse. I will figure out if I can post pictures. Now that I think about it I think I might be able to do so. I would really like to hear opinions on this. But I think I will be asking for my money back. I don't think I was told the whole story and the fact that the seller had to doctor a picture in which the lens appears to be sitting on the camera, I am quite suspicious. Thank you again! I really appreciate your help! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted March 26, 2009 Share #12 Posted March 26, 2009 Hi, Did the shop you mention find anything obviously wrong with the camera? It does sound like the mount is damaged in some way. Perhaps someone tried to mount some other type of lens which has damaged the lugs. That said if the rest of the camera is OK I would expect its fairly simple and cheap to have a new mount fitted - maybe you can negotiate a partial refund from the seller? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted March 26, 2009 Share #13 Posted March 26, 2009 ... It seems that for some reason there is a slight bed in the mount but I have no idea how this could've happened. It has the original black wax Leica seal, the camera has never been opened. ... Having a seal with the proper letter implies but doesn't guarantee that the camera has never been opened. You don't say there's a letter in the seal; I don't know about the M3, but by the 60s, Leica sealed each camera with a letter indicating place of construction or repair. If the camera hasn't been used for some time, it needs a check from an authorized repair agency anyway. If you want to use the camera (it sounds as if you do), that service would just be part of getting the camera into good working order. The M3 is magnificent in many ways, but it's heavier than the later M bodies and doesn't have the finder frames I find most useful. You'll need to consider whether it's worth the effort in your case. Sounds as if it's definitely a problem with the bayonet, though what the problem might be obviously eludes us. I can't imagine any situation in which the bayonet could be bent while on the camera; it's awfully hard to bend it even when it's off the camera. If a lens had been on the camera and caused this putative bending, how was the lens removed? It would have required brute force and would likely have left a noticeable scratch on the camera bayonet. One more question: Check to be sure the lens-locking arm attached to the release button drops fully into the body (IOW, the metal part that drops into the lens mount recess to lock the lens in place). Somewhere there's one small point of contact between the body and lens bayonets that's blocking the lens from mounting. You sound careful. Have you tried turning the lens hard? I don't mean with brute force or a wrench or bottle-opener, just with your own hand. The way you describe it, it isn't binding but it's blocked. Perhaps twisting the lens with a little more force could get it past the blockage. (I know, never force a precision-machined piece of equipment; I'm just saying push till your better judgment says I'm an idiot. ) Otherwise, I'm at a loss. If the dealer you showed it to couldn't find the problem either, then I'd say either return it or keep it and send it for repair. Good luck! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gonzo Posted March 27, 2009 Author Share #14 Posted March 27, 2009 This question mark is actually my attempt to upload a photo. Please bear with me...I'll eventually figure it out :-) OH wow that is a big blurry photo. Not sure how to resize this. Any suggestions? Thanks! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gonzo Posted March 27, 2009 Author Share #15 Posted March 27, 2009 Here we are. I suspect the bend occurs on the left side. I am indeed sorry that I am unable to give you a better photo. The iPhone is indeed a great device but its camera needs some work. I'll see if I can't borrow a camera and give you a better picture. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
elgenper Posted March 27, 2009 Share #16 Posted March 27, 2009 ... I don't think I was told the whole story and the fact that the seller had to doctor a picture in which the lens appears to be sitting on the camera, I am quite suspicious. .... Let us get this straight: did he show a picture of the camera with attached lens, and cannot now mount that same lens as shown in the pic? If he did use a doctored picture, it proves that he was indeed aware of the problem when putting the camera up for sale. Doing so is fraudulent behaviour, and I would demand my money back again, and never, ever have any business with this individual. If this is what occurred, I just don´t think it matters any more what kind of damage to the mount there is; the whole business stinks.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swann Posted March 27, 2009 Share #17 Posted March 27, 2009 Sorry for joining in so unexpected. I had the same problem too and got it resolved from Leica Switzerland. The point is that the mount of the lens itself has a little dent just underneath the red point. This dent must fit into the camera bayonet spring (beside the lens lock). As with the narrow tolerances of Leica mechanics sometimes the dent is a wee bit too shallow and so the lens does not lock. It was so with my brandnew 'cron 50 that fitted well on my M3 but overturned on my M7. Exchanging the lens mounted bayonet did the trick. Of course the Leica represantative fixed it within 24 hours and for free. Regards Swann Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gonzo Posted March 27, 2009 Author Share #18 Posted March 27, 2009 Let us get this straight: did he show a picture of the camera with attached lens, and cannot now mount that same lens as shown in the pic? If he did use a doctored picture, it proves that he was indeed aware of the problem when putting the camera up for sale. Doing so is fraudulent behaviour, and I would demand my money back again, and never, ever have any business with this individual. If this is what occurred, I just don´t think it matters any more what kind of damage to the mount there is; the whole business stinks.... Indeed I have come to the conclusion that is exactly what this person did. He showed me a picture of the camera with the lens on it. I have already written to the seller and he refuses to deal with me. I am in the processing of filing a police complaint citing fraud. I was so careful in this purchase and paid a good and fair price for both the camera and the lens. (I might add that the lens wasn't in the condition that I expected either but had overlooked that slightly as my concern was with the M3: so two strikes.) I could of course pay to have the mount repaired. I inquired at Solms and I was told that it would be about 100 euros for the part plus labor. Not a great deal of money but I had planned to use that money towards a CLA. So I am looking at an additional 400 euros and some. Plus if I let it go then this guy gets away with his trick. I guess I am stubborn that way. I was so excited to finally have this camera after having researched for a month; deciding which lens and if I wanted the M2 or M3 (we've seen this discussion before!) having saved the money and trying to carefully find a seller. Next time I go straight to Leica. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gonzo Posted March 27, 2009 Author Share #19 Posted March 27, 2009 Swann thank you! Its not too late to add your experience. I did take it to the Leica shop here and they looked at it for me but didn't fix it for me. It sounds like they have excellent service in Switzerland. I doubt that they would fix it here for free. That is great that they helped you out! I'm still considering what I will do in this case. Such a shame though. Otherwise it is a nice camera but we seem to have gotten off to a rocky start...And yes it is the area in the photo just underneath the red dot. It is the reason that I can turn the lens slightly but the lens doesn't engage because it can't slide into the bayonet and click. It is indeed bent. How that could've possibly happened I don't know. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted March 27, 2009 Share #20 Posted March 27, 2009 Hard to tell from the pics but it looks to me like the small lug at the bottom is bent? I would advise you against sending the camera to Leica, they charge an awful lot for simple repairs - you will be better off going to an indy repairer IMHO. I don't know where you're based but there are plenty of well respected specialists who will charge a fraction of Leica's prices. They may well have a s/h mount in stock too. FWIW I would put it down to experience, at least you have the camera (how many people have been scammed into paying for something which never arrives!). Once its repaired and CLA'd you'll have a camera that's good for years. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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