SteveYork Posted March 10, 2009 Share #41 Posted March 10, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) you cant blame Leica for the weakness of the dollar though. The Euro price of the M7 at launch was circa 3000 €, until the end of last year it was still within about 10% of that figure. The weakness of the dollar couldn't alone account for a 65% price hike from 2003 to 2009. I just don't see how that could be. In any event, the US dollar vs. Euro is now much closer to the 2003 rate, but that hasn't changed the pricing structure at all. What's the price now of a new M body in Euros? Does that include VAT? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 10, 2009 Posted March 10, 2009 Hi SteveYork, Take a look here The end of MP/M7 production? . I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Riccis Posted March 10, 2009 Share #42 Posted March 10, 2009 Riccis, it's the 21. The masterpiece is the 21. I am personally waiting for that one. That's what I've been thinking but with my wedding season starting next week, the 24 will do until the 21 gets here Of course, kudos to Leica USA for taking care of me and ensuring they got me a 24 which I must say is superb. Cheers, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tgray Posted March 10, 2009 Share #43 Posted March 10, 2009 The weakness of the dollar couldn't alone account for a 65% price hike from 2003 to 2009. I just don't see how that could be. In any event, the US dollar vs. Euro is now much closer to the 2003 rate, but that hasn't changed the pricing structure at all. What's the price now of a new M body in Euros? Does that include VAT? Actually other German manufactured items I know of saw a similar price hike over the last 6 years. Schoeps mics went from expensive to nuts. Approximately a 30-40% increase across the line, in several steps, mostly due to the strengthening euro. I don't think they've reduced the pricing since either, and they certainly haven't been issuing rebates, which might be Leica's way of acknowledging the (perhaps temporary) reversal in exchange rates. Schoeps also hasn't seen the complete collapse of the film market either, which might also account for some of Leica's price increases. Still it's a shame. I would have bought a new M7 had I been able to find one for $2500, but for close to $4k, I went used. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
batmobile Posted March 11, 2009 Share #44 Posted March 11, 2009 worried about the M's future? Then go and buy one.Leica only make them to make money, and they only make money when people buy them. I'll respectfully disagree with this statement. I am a 100% film shooter and the new 24 Summilux is awesome in film (check out the images in my blog if you have not seen them). I am now waiting for the 21 before deciding which one to keep. Cheers, I was not commenting on whether they are good performers on film or not. I was suggesting that the driving force behind their introduction was far more likely to be to provide some fast wides for M8 users and that the film user market is a bonus. I was suggesting that the release of these lenses indicates nothing for the future viability of film Ms as they were needed to provide the equivalent of the 35 Lux for M8 users. By going for such as fast 21 they have effectively provided the 28 Lux so many film users have been wanting.... for the M8 user (the 24 lux being the equivalent of the 35 I just mentioned) I dont think there is anything in these new lenses to tell us that Leica intends to keep film Ms. They may well do so - I hope they do - but I am surprised that people are seeing these new lenses as some sort of sign. They indicate nothing either way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
guywalder Posted March 11, 2009 Share #45 Posted March 11, 2009 The weakness of the dollar couldn't alone account for a 65% price hike from 2003 to 2009. I just don't see how that could be. In any event, the US dollar vs. Euro is now much closer to the 2003 rate, but that hasn't changed the pricing structure at all. What's the price now of a new M body in Euros? Does that include VAT? fair point, however in Germany an M7 is close to 3500€, which is still well over the USD price tgray quotes above, even after your 65% increase. Over the same period the German price has gone up about 15%, so just think how much more we used to pay compared to buying in the US! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
veraikon Posted March 11, 2009 Share #46 Posted March 11, 2009 Anti-rumour management Mr. Daniel, Productmanager M offers to all LuF Members a free visit to the M-production line http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/analog-forum/79593-zukunft-der-analogen-m-linie-11.html#post838851 Liebe Leica M-Fotografen, mit großem Interesse habe ich die engagierten Diskussionen um die Produktion der analogen LEICA M Modelle M7 und MP verfolgt. Deshalb schalte ich mich ausnahmsweise direkt in die Diskussion ein. Um es vorweg zu nehmen: wir produzieren nach wie vor analoge M. Die Mengen sind mit dem Siegeszug der digitalen Fotografie natürlich stark zurückgegangen, haben sich aber in den letzten zwei Jahren gut stabilisiert, so dass eine Produktion durchaus wirtschaftlich ist. Wir würden uns freuen, das Leica Forum durch die Produktion zu führen - mit der Möglichkeit, ausnahmsweise in der Produktion zu fotografieren oder zu filmen. In diesem Rahmen stehe ich auch gerne persönlich Rede und Antwort zu allen Fragen rund um die analogen Leica M Kameras. Beste Grüße aus Solms, Stefan Daniel Produktmanager Leica M-System Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wls.shanghai Posted March 11, 2009 Share #47 Posted March 11, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) GOOD NEWS FROM SOLMS ....now all the soothsayers & prognosticators will be send to the moon - with the crystal ball Regards wls Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sealsong Posted March 11, 2009 Share #48 Posted March 11, 2009 Simple answer, no, Leica haven't stopped producing the film M cameras. There was a similar thread a while back. I asked one of the London dealers about their film M sales and they sell them regularly. OK only one dealer but I have no reason to think that they are getting all the new film M business, i.e. others must be selling them too. I say that we will see the end of the film 'M' 100%. Anyone who thinks otherwise is just not being realistic. It stands to reason that a small company like Leica which is hemorrhaging left right and centre simply cannot survive making extremely expensive cameras in a medium that is becoming extinct! It is not rocket science and as one member pointed out, we've already seen the R discontinued .... as the boss of the company, what would you do? I have many film 'M's including the M7 Titan 50 year anniversary three lens kit and the very first M7 ever (it is actually code named 'M6a' and serial numbered 0000001). It was given to me by Steffan Daniel himself so it is the real deal. I am happy that I have these timeless cameras, how much of an investment they are I don't know but I bought them firstly to use and secondly so that when my children grow up and hopefully show some interest in photography, I can tell them that back in the day there was this wonderful medium called film and that these were the finest 35mm film cameras in existence ~aag. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tgray Posted March 11, 2009 Share #49 Posted March 11, 2009 The thing about film M cameras is that, while incredible complicated, all the tooling exists, and you can probably build them one by one, to order. So they don't gain much probably by scrapping the line. If they sell 2 a month by custom order basis, they will still probably make money. Though I don't know much about manufacturing, I bet that film M's will probably remain profitable as long as they don't have to train new people to make them. The advantages gained my scrapping the line would probably relate to scrapping/getting rid of the tooling and the manufacturing space. But what do I know. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
redbaron Posted March 11, 2009 Share #50 Posted March 11, 2009 This question is ridiculous and serves no one's interests, except those of Leica's competitors. It's the same as asking a man if he has stopped beating his wife. It doesn't help Leica, nor does it help buyers. If some concrete evidence was available that suggested a particular item was about to be discounted I could understand it. It should be obvious in these uncertain times that consumer confidence is vital. Share prices, unemployment and interest rates rise and fall simply through changes in confidence. The R series has not been discontinued. A new R camera is just about to be released, but instead of looking forward to that many people are calling it 'haemorrhaging'. The steady increase in M prices should remind users of two indisputable facts; that there is demand for the product and it will increase in value. Two of the most important factors of buyer confidence. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Mitchum Posted March 12, 2009 Share #51 Posted March 12, 2009 The R series of film cameras has indeed been discontinued. I imagine the M7 will be next in a year or so followed by the MP a few years after that. No doubt there will be various special editions of the MP for collectors during that time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
redbaron Posted March 12, 2009 Share #52 Posted March 12, 2009 Point taken on the R film distinction, but Mitchum, apart from your imagination, do you have any evidence that the Ms will be discontinued? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBA Posted March 12, 2009 Share #53 Posted March 12, 2009 Even if Leica scales back production, does anybody seriously think they are going to abandon the A La Carte program for film cameras? All this speculation strikes me as absurd. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NZDavid Posted March 12, 2009 Share #54 Posted March 12, 2009 Anti-rumour management Mr. Daniel, Productmanager M offers to all LuF Members a free visit to the M-production line http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/analog-forum/79593-zukunft-der-analogen-m-linie-11.html#post838851 Stefan Daniel’s post on the German forum (quoted above), which asks the same question, is very positive: “I have followed the lively discussion on the production of the analog Leica MP and M7 models with great interest. I am therefore, just for once, joining the discussion directly. To put it clearly, we shall continue to produce the analog M as before. With the success of digital photography, volumes have naturally fallen, but in the last two years they have stabilized well, so that further production is economical. We would be pleased to take members of the Leica forum through the production facility – with the possibility, for once, of photographing or filming inside the production area. I am personally available to discuss and answer all questions about analog Leica M cameras. Best wishes from Solms, Stefan Daniel, Product manager Leica M System.” That is a very clear and unambiguous response! Thank you Stefan for the assurance. I enjoyed visiting Leica in 2007. It sounds like a good opportunity for forum members. I am glad production will continue. I think the key to the future is not exponential growth, but sustainability. -------------------------------------- Liebe Leica M-Fotografen, mit großem Interesse habe ich die engagierten Diskussionen um die Produktion der analogen LEICA M Modelle M7 und MP verfolgt. Deshalb schalte ich mich ausnahmsweise direkt in die Diskussion ein. Um es vorweg zu nehmen: wir produzieren nach wie vor analoge M. Die Mengen sind mit dem Siegeszug der digitalen Fotografie natürlich stark zurückgegangen, haben sich aber in den letzten zwei Jahren gut stabilisiert, so dass eine Produktion durchaus wirtschaftlich ist. Wir würden uns freuen, das Leica Forum durch die Produktion zu führen - mit der Möglichkeit, ausnahmsweise in der Produktion zu fotografieren oder zu filmen. In diesem Rahmen stehe ich auch gerne persönlich Rede und Antwort zu allen Fragen rund um die analogen Leica M Kameras. Beste Grüße aus Solms, Stefan Daniel Produktmanager Leica M-System Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBA Posted March 12, 2009 Share #55 Posted March 12, 2009 Thanks for the translation. My German has rusted nearly to the point of non-existence over the past 25+ years. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LUF Admin Posted March 12, 2009 Share #56 Posted March 12, 2009 Dear all, I talked to Stefan Daniel yesterday twice - our first conversation triggered his reply, in the second we talked about how to manage the visit of some Leica Forum "eye witnesses". We'll try to find a date in the next few weeks when I and some forum members will visit the Leica site. As only a few people can visit the M production (as it is a clean room) I'll take a video camera with me and will document everything in picture and sound. As a kind of pilot to a Leica Forum TV series I'll keep you informed! Best regards from Bonn Andreas Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppyman Posted March 12, 2009 Share #57 Posted March 12, 2009 Andreas, if this visit has not already been completed by June, I know that people attending the Hessenpark meeting would be delighted to visit this area and provide pictures and commentary to the entire list. I volunteer and so does my M8!! Dear all, I talked to Stefan Daniel yesterday twice - our first conversation triggered his reply, in the second we talked about how to manage the visit of some Leica Forum "eye witnesses". We'll try to find a date in the next few weeks when I and some forum members will visit the Leica site. As only a few people can visit the M production (as it is a clean room) I'll take a video camera with me and will document everything in picture and sound. As a kind of pilot to a Leica Forum TV series I'll keep you informed! Best regards from Bonn Andreas Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
budrichard Posted March 12, 2009 Share #58 Posted March 12, 2009 fair point, however in Germany an M7 is close to 3500€, which is still well over the USD price tgray quotes above, even after your 65% increase. Over the same period the German price has gone up about 15%, so just think how much more we used to pay compared to buying in the US! I purchased my second M7 last year as a 'Demo' model that an authorized Leica dealer had sitting in inventory. I got the standard warrenty and paid for the increased Passport warrenty. Price was $2200USD. From my looking around at dealers, one can purchase a 'new' M7/MP at a substantial discount as they are simply not selling. Ordering an 'a la carte' model is twice the actual street price and for the price of one 'a la cate' model I got two M7's. Leica will make M7/MP until it is either uneconomical or the workers retire which has pahhened in at least one other productline that was discontinued that I know. Thier simply were not the workers left to build product. I don't think Lieca has the resources to reconstruct the M7/MP after discontinuation as Nikon did with the SP. As to whether this discussion is valid, it cetainly is because in the future analog cameras will be shelf adornments, the hard part is predicting just when. As for me, when Digital cameras can supplant the quality I obtain from my analog M and Nikon cameras, I will be changing, probably skipping both the DX and FX formats for MX which I feel will be a much better implmentation of digital.-Dick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NZDavid Posted March 12, 2009 Share #59 Posted March 12, 2009 JBA, you're welcome. I need more practice, though. Andreas, excellent. I wonder if this news need a separate posting or sticky? I can't imagine there will be thousands of Leica forum members descending on Solms, but it will fascinating to read all about it and see some pictures later on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Albertson Posted March 12, 2009 Share #60 Posted March 12, 2009 Highly recommended, if you're in the neighborhood. I visited the Solms plant back in 1992, and it was very educational and enjoyable. Dear all, I talked to Stefan Daniel yesterday twice - our first conversation triggered his reply, in the second we talked about how to manage the visit of some Leica Forum "eye witnesses". We'll try to find a date in the next few weeks when I and some forum members will visit the Leica site. As only a few people can visit the M production (as it is a clean room) I'll take a video camera with me and will document everything in picture and sound. As a kind of pilot to a Leica Forum TV series I'll keep you informed! Best regards from Bonn Andreas Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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