farnz Posted March 2, 2009 Share #1 Posted March 2, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Samsung has just announced its NX range of cameras, which improve on the micro four thirds concept of the G1 by using a larger APS-C sized sensor. No mirror box, 'precision' EVF, and live view suggest an interesting mix if someone can produce a KAF to M mount that works. Presumably it will be a 1.33 crop factor like the M8 rather than the mFT 2 times crop factor. More detail here. Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 2, 2009 Posted March 2, 2009 Hi farnz, Take a look here A new camera that's better than Micro Four Thirds?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Bo_Lorentzen Posted March 3, 2009 Share #2 Posted March 3, 2009 Pete, That would probably be the combined samsung/pentax entry.? definitely look like the contender for the zuperzoom crown in a big way, and probably the ultimate travel zoom camera. If it is better than the four-thirds system, Im guessing that depends on definitions. personally my favorite lens is the 150 f 2.0 which would not give that much reach with a bigger sensor... but I would not mind if I got even more fov out of my 8mm.. soo.. But I do think a APS sized sensor with a permanent zuperzoom makes perfect sense in a general way, there is no dust issues and the camera is optimized for itself, without having to work with a bunch of lenses. I have always though that things like my old canon Pro1 probably was a strong indicator of where things will go once we get out of our love affair with ultra fast lenses... now if they combine a zoom noctilux with a 1.3 crop no mirror... hmmm 20x zoom with real selective focus and a M8 quality (or better) raw file... . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
offshore Posted March 3, 2009 Share #3 Posted March 3, 2009 Samsung has just announced its NX range of cameras, which improve on the micro four thirds concept of the G1 by using a larger APS-C sized sensor. No mirror box, 'precision' EVF, and live view suggest an interesting mix if someone can produce a KAF to M mount that works. Presumably it will be a 1.33 crop factor like the M8 rather than the mFT 2 times crop factor. More detail here. Pete. It won't be a 1.33 CF if it's an APS-C sensor. Leica is an APS-H a little larger than the C. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
farnz Posted March 3, 2009 Author Share #4 Posted March 3, 2009 Bo, Yes, I'm guessing it would be a combined Samsung and Pentax camera in the same way as the GX-20 and K20D models (hence my assumption of the KAF mount). By your 150 f2, are you referring to a 75 Summicron on a mFT camera? If so, it's still only going to give you the reach of a 75 but the field of view of a 150 and on an APS-C (assuming a crop factor of 1.33) it will similarly give you the reach of a 75 but the field of view of a 100 mm lens. If I've misunderstood your meaning then I apologise. Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
farnz Posted March 3, 2009 Author Share #5 Posted March 3, 2009 It won't be a 1.33 CF if it's an APS-C sensor. Leica is an APS-H a little larger than the C. Ah, thanks, Ron, I stand corrected. What will the crop factor be then? 1.5 times? Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
offshore Posted March 3, 2009 Share #6 Posted March 3, 2009 Ah, thanks, Ron, I stand corrected. What will the crop factor be then? 1.5 times? Pete. Samsung and Pentax are joined at the hip and Pentax's crop is 1.5 so I'd say that's a good guess. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andit Posted March 3, 2009 Share #7 Posted March 3, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hi Pete, If they are using an APS-C sized sensor, then the crop factor is x1.5 as opposed to the x2.0 of the 4/3rds system. This camera can not be classified as 4/3rds anymore as the specification for 4/3rds states quite clearly that the maximum sensor size is limited to 18×13.5 mm (22.5 mm diagonal). Why the image quality of 4/3rds is so good lies in the optics. The lenses have been designed to provide and extremely high resolving power specifically for this size sensor (with an image ratio of 4:3 - thus 4/3rds). This in contrast to current offerings by most manufacturers who use lenses that were designed to work with full frame 35mm film camera's. One thing that does actually point against Canon/Nikon/Sony/Pentax from pushing the full frame idea to much is the amount of time/money spent in developing lenses that can only be used with APS-C (eg Canon EF-S lenses). On full frame these would give you a great deal of vignetting. They definitely have three different lines that they employ - Consumer (Cheap & Nasty, APS-C size, estimate 80% of market), Prosumer (Better build quality but still APS-C, estimate 15% of market) and Professional (Expensive, excellent quality and Full Frame, 5% or less of market). Leica's new lenses have been designed to work with all M Camera's - full frame 35 as well as the M8. Thus they may just release a FF M9 when this becomes technically possible. Andreas Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted March 3, 2009 Share #8 Posted March 3, 2009 I've got problems with this. Help me out. First, they say they'll be the new leader in the "hybrid digital" field. Well, I don't know what that is. Seems to me until they define "hybrid digital" (in the US, we've got Ubiquity's "HD" = "Hybrid Digital" radio, but that's a trademark), they're the only player and therefore the leader by definition. They say (miracolo dei miracoli) that they've reduced the flange-to-sensor distance by 60% compared to typical dSLRs. (Wowsers.) That's meaningless unless the NX series has interchangeable lenses. That in turn would mean a new lens mount that would require an adapter to use existing lenses, and--so long as Samsung is the "new leader in hybrid digital"--possibly the need to await their lead in new lenses till others get on the bandwagon? Sure, we can use M lenses with reduced crop factor compared to Micro FourThirds--but that's not the NX concept, is it? Don't misunderstand me. I like the idea of Micro FourThirds. But how long did FourThirds languish waiting for its new incarnation? At least with Micro FourThirds there are already lenses for the mount. And I like the idea of a larger sensor than digicams have. A D300 will produce a better picture than my D-Lux 4, although the D-Lux 4 is much more compact. And because there's a system behind the D300, I can use any Nikkor on either a full-frame or a cropped-frame Nikon. But larger sensor in compact body--haven't Ricoh and others done that without developing a large following? Larger sensor in compact EVIL body--well, we've got Micro FourThirds available with existing lenses and adapters. Not trying to be negative. The Pensung (Samtax?) NX is an interesting idea, but I don't see where it fits in; I don't see that it has any "Unique Selling Propositions." Just missing what it's about. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted March 3, 2009 Share #9 Posted March 3, 2009 For me, the center issue is APS-C sensor technology: lot of investiment had been made on this standard, it has been widely accepted in the Pro market and in a moment in which the DSLR upper market tends to FF sensors, there is a generalized need to carve new market segments for APS-C : this concept of "Hybrid Digital" is a way to do it, though the term in itself is not so fine, for me. Anyway, the annoucement in itself seems very "poor"... as others have said, a camera of this kind must have a choice of interchangeable lenses, and not a single word has been said on them, on availability, lens mount specs etc... rather understandable, given taht availabilty will be in 2nd half of the year, but anyway a missing message: it's optics that draw pics... not fine to announce a NEW camera without saying anytning on the glass in front of it. If such a camera will be able to mount, someway, M lenses... well the 1,5 crop factor opens some good combinations of current M focals ... (18 = 27, 24 = 36, 35 = 52, 50 = 75, 90 = 135...) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhabedi Posted March 3, 2009 Share #10 Posted March 3, 2009 First, they say they'll be the new leader in the "hybrid digital" field. Well, I don't know what that is. I think what we're seeing here is an attempt of (a part of) the camera industry to invent a new marketing term - which might be good news for Leica: The result of the last decades of marketing was that for the "normal" user (i.e. the one who counts, economically) a quality camera is synonymous with "SLR". Effectively, for Joe Average there are only two categories of cameras, SLRs and point-and-shoots (aka "compacts"). This obviously isn't particularly great for Leica - try to explain to your neighbor who doesn't care much about photography and who never heard the word "rangefinder" that you just paid 5,000 Euros for a camera body which isn't even an SLR... Now, Panasonic (with the G1), Samsung (with this new NX), Olympus, and others are trying to establish a new kind of camera which is not an SLR but which they want to sell to the "prosumer" market. They definitely don't want their new toys to be lumped together with all the other non-SLR compacts, so they have to invent new terminology. Panasonic tried something like "SLR without a mirror" last year. (Which is bogus and sounds even more funny in German where some magazines followed Panasonic's lead and called it "Spiegelreflexkamera ohne Spiegel".) Samsung now calls it "hybrid" by which I think they mean "mixture of (the best of) SLR and compact". You don't have to like this Newspeak and it probably isn't clear yet how this new kid on the block will be called in the future, but the important part is that some players in the industry with a lot of marketing and PR power are trying hard to convince their customers that there is a new type of camera and that you will now (finally!) be able to buy a camera which is "as good as an SLR" but "small like a compact". If the marketing guys at Leica are clever, they'll jump on that bandwagon and brand the M8 and upcoming digital rangefinders as the premium "hybrid" camera. And, incidentally, there's one more interesting observation one can make from Samsung's announcement: Leica has received a lot of flak for the M8's sensor and this was often due to the fact that it was compared to SLRs in the same price region. Several people here, especially in the German forum, like to insinuate that the engineers at Solms are all fools and every other camera maker on the world can easily build better sensors. But what I've learned from Samsung's announcement and from what else is on the market is that for cameras with a really small flange-to-sensor distance (compared to SLRs) Leica is still the leader of the crowd. Panasonic (and soon Olympus) has a crop factor of 2, Samsung and Epson (with the RD-1) have 1.5, Canon, Nikon, and others so far have nothing comparable. The M8's sensor certainly has IR issues and it isn't as good at high ISOs as some of the pro sensors from Nikon and Canon, but in its particular area it still is without competition... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andit Posted March 3, 2009 Share #11 Posted March 3, 2009 "HYBRID DIGITAL" - meaningless marketing term... This has to be one of the most absurd terms ever used in this context. As far as I'm concerned there are very few camera's that deserve this title. For me it means that you can use the camera either with film or as a digital. That means, in 35mm terms, the ONLY CAMERA that complies with this is the Leica R8/R9 with DMR Back. In medium format you have the digital backs that you use on your Hasselblad/Rolleiflex/Mamiya while still using film by simply switching backs. So, in my opinion, this is an absolutely useless marketing term... Andreas Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted March 3, 2009 Share #12 Posted March 3, 2009 I've got problems with this. ... They say (miracolo dei miracoli) that they've reduced the flange-to-sensor distance by 60% compared to typical dSLRs. (Wowsers.) Howard... I do not know much about DSLRs... what is, in mm., a typical flange-to-sensor distance ? (I'm thinking of possible M-adapter... ) (Appreciate your Italian... ) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andit Posted March 3, 2009 Share #13 Posted March 3, 2009 The result of the last decades of marketing was that for the "normal" user (i.e. the one who counts, economically) a quality camera is synonymous with "SLR". Effectively, for Joe Average there are only two categories of cameras, SLRs and point-and-shoots (aka "compacts"). The term that they used for the in between camera was Bridge Camera. Examples of Bridge Camera's are quite common and include the Leica V-Lux 1, Leica Digilux 1 & 2. These are excellent camera's, have far longer lenses to the compact's, more professional operating modes while still having a fixed lens. Andreas Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted March 3, 2009 Share #14 Posted March 3, 2009 "HYBRID DIGITAL" - meaningless marketing term... ....So, in my opinion, this is an absolutely useless marketing term... Andreas Agree.. stupid term... they could have invented something better... marketing people are risking their workplace as many other, nowadays... better they try at least to have smart ideas. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhabedi Posted March 3, 2009 Share #15 Posted March 3, 2009 The term that they used for the in between camera was Bridge Camera. I'm aware of this term, but I don't think it is in widespread use. People on this forum are not representative for the marketing efforts I was talking about. I just asked my wife, she had never heard of a "bridge camera"... For kicks, go to ebay.com and look at the categories for digital cameras - they only have "SLR" and "point-and-shoot" (and specialist stuff like "underwater"). There is no such thing as a "bridge camera" there. How would you categorize an M8 on Ebay? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andit Posted March 3, 2009 Share #16 Posted March 3, 2009 For kicks, go to ebay.com and look at the categories for digital cameras - they only have "SLR" and "point-and-shoot" (and specialist stuff like "underwater"). There is no such thing as a "bridge camera" there. How would you categorize an M8 on Ebay? There is only one way of categorizing an M8 - it's a Leica Andreas Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
farnz Posted March 3, 2009 Author Share #17 Posted March 3, 2009 There is only one way of categorizing an M8 - it's a Leica Andreas Yup. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandymc Posted March 3, 2009 Share #18 Posted March 3, 2009 The term that they used for the in between camera was Bridge Camera. Examples of Bridge Camera's are quite common and include the Leica V-Lux 1, Leica Digilux 1 & 2. These are excellent camera's, have far longer lenses to the compact's, more professional operating modes while still having a fixed lens. Andreas Umm, yes, "bridge" was the first word I noticed. Problem is, every "bridge" camera I can think of has been an abject failure in sales terms. Think the Sony ones, the Nikon ones, etc. Although admittedly some of them were quite capable. Sandy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
4season Posted March 3, 2009 Share #19 Posted March 3, 2009 This may be a harbinger of future SLRs, but for right now, it doesn't seem to solve any problems that I needed solved. Would guess they've dealt with the incident light issue by designing all-new retrofocus lenses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andit Posted March 3, 2009 Share #20 Posted March 3, 2009 Umm, yes, "bridge" was the first word I noticed. Problem is, every "bridge" camera I can think of has been an abject failure in sales terms. Think the Sony ones, the Nikon ones, etc. Although admittedly some of them were quite capable. Sandy Hi Sandy, I agree with you whole heartedly. These camera's were a failure in terms of sales. This is however a failure on the side of the manufacturers as well. I never saw an advert outside of dedicated photography magazines for these camera's (at least not in this part of the world). Yet, I often saw adverts in "waiting room" magazines for digital compacts (Fuji did a great deal of advertising) and for entry level SLR's (the Canon Rebel/400D come to mind). This is the target group that these companies should have gone for. Certainly most people that I know that started off with a digital compact, went straight through to SLR once their skills were honed a bit - main reasoning was that they could exchange lenses and had a bigger sensor for better image quality. Andreas Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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