Guest Jockele Posted March 28, 2009 Share #41 Posted March 28, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) I think no! Leica Camera AG - S-System Best wishes Jockele Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 28, 2009 Posted March 28, 2009 Hi Guest Jockele, Take a look here Is the S2 dead?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
carstenw Posted March 28, 2009 Share #42 Posted March 28, 2009 Carsten - I think we can safely say we agree on a lot of things regarding Leica cameras, but without even reading through this thread, I'd have to disagree with you here: my feeling is always that a misinformed opinion can be argued against, but not censored or muzzled in any way. Anyone who isn't interested in following a discussion is never forced to do so. On this one point we will have to disagree then. I am not saying that there should be censoring or muzzling, but that people should self-censor to a greater extent than is currently the case in some threads, like some of the S2 threads. It is possibly to ignore posters, and those who consistently annoy me I do add to my ignore list (currently about 20 people, many of whom are no longer active), but answers to such posters do not get ignored, so the solution is only partial. Leaving an otherwise interesting thread which includes some annoying posts would be the most desperate solution possible. I have an interest in the subject-matter, namely the S2, and while I am not independently wealthy, if the price and timing are right, I can at least imagine that I could afford one, and it is on my mind. The problem is that it is so easy to post in a forum without any knowledge, insight, or any other point of interest to add. I have certainly been guilty of this myself, but in speculative threads like this one, starting with the ridiculous and ill-conceived title, to paraphrase "Apocalypse Now", the BS is rising so fast you need wings to stay above it. Apparently anyone with a 1-second thought simply posts it rather than asking if it is of any use to anyone but himself. Generally this forum has a very high signal-to-noise ratio, but on occasion it reaches the depths of the DPReview forums, which is very low indeed. Sadly, the S2 threads tend in this direction. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted March 28, 2009 Share #43 Posted March 28, 2009 The problem is that it is so easy to post in a forum without any knowledge, insight, or any other point of interest to add. I have certainly been guilty of this myself, but in speculative threads like this one, starting with the ridiculous and ill-conceived title, to paraphrase "Apocalypse Now", the BS is rising so fast you need wings to stay above it. Apparently anyone with a 1-second thought simply posts it rather than asking if it is of any use to anyone but himself. Generally this forum has a very high signal-to-noise ratio, but on occasion it reaches the depths of the DPReview forums, which is very low indeed. Sadly, the S2 threads tend in this direction. I think you are digging a hole for yourself here, Carsten - the idea that only those likely to buy the S2 are 'entitled' to express an opinion about the mater is too ludicrous to even warrant further discussion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted March 28, 2009 Share #44 Posted March 28, 2009 I'm sincerely hoping this isn't going to be the case, but when I read (in LFI and elsewhere) the reasoning behind the development, it often sounds like hubris, Yes, it concerns me too. You only have to look at how the very costly development of the R8 hobbled the company financially for many years to wonder what damage the so-called AFRIKA project could do to Leica's future prospects as an independent company. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eronald Posted March 28, 2009 Share #45 Posted March 28, 2009 I think that the specs in 2008 were ok; for sale in 2010 to the working public, the sensor is a joke. Leica should announce a sensor and electronics replacement upgrade program at launch. I have a P45+ and a D3x; the P45+ never yields a sharp *handheld* image. On a tripod, the P45+ wipes the floor with the Nikon. The D3x works nicely handheld because it has excellent AF and can do 1600 ISO. Conclusion: ISO 100 simply doesn't cut it it for handheld, nor does single point AF and focus and recompose. The S2 is basically dead at launch unless hat sensor gets updated to something that can do ISO 800 decently. Edmund Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcusperkins Posted March 28, 2009 Share #46 Posted March 28, 2009 I just don't see the S2 working, it will become the 4/3rds of the MF class. Somebody who needs the absolute best quality is going to go for the big 60mp back cameras. If you need speed and quality, then the latest Canons and Nikons(at the time when the S2 is released) will be the choice. My Canon primes (600/f4, 200/f2, 135/f2, 50/f1.2, 35/f1.4, 24/f1.4 v2, are, in practical terms, the equal of Leica M lens quality for professional use. The new tilt and shift Canon lenses look interesting too. Painful to admit, but In many respects, I think the Canon 35/1.4 is a better lens than the Leica M equivalent, based on four years of using both. Once you start shooting big gigs with assistants and lights, camera size doesn't come into it. No matter how big the camera, it is the smallest part of the kit. Go on some hard foreign assignment, Canon and Nikon are King. The M8 simply will not cut it once it starts getting seriously banged about, and I'd hate to drop an S2. There are some hardcore Leica users out there, and I'm one of them. I've always got a Leica M with me on every assignment, and sure it produces some magic, but the reality is it makes up for very few of the pictures I make my money on. Despite our commitment to Leica, and their superb lenses (and they are superb), the majority of professional photographers think Leica cameras are simple expensive toys that don't really cut the mustard - and they have a point. You only have to look at the price of the D-lux 4 over the Panasonic to prove the point (more money for a camera that feels less secure in the hand - unless you pay even more for a handgrip.) - Yes, and like an idiot, I bought the D-lux 4. But never again. The M8, despite its beautiful build quality, is simply not worth the money for what it can produce. And all the nonsense about it being discreet, and the ability to walk into some village of a long lost tribe and not be noticed is bullshit. Besides, that sort of work is about relationship, not equipment. I am very interested in the S2 simply because it is a Leica, but when I take off my Leica rose tinted glasses, it's just another beautifully built, but very expensive toy that won't do the job any better than other equipment. Sad, but true. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mooky Posted March 28, 2009 Share #47 Posted March 28, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Nice to hear opinions about any camera - I really mean that. But then I read the naysayer opinion/comments and I just shake my head in wonder. Honestly, just what makes anyone so knowledgeable on equipment that hasn't even hit the streets yet or that only a very few have even held? How many REALLY know what the camera will finally spec-out at, how it will perform, etc., etc., etc. Amazing. How about some comments (based on your hands-on expertise) that actually state some FACTS. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
georg Posted March 28, 2009 Share #48 Posted March 28, 2009 "I think that the specs in 2008 were ok; for sale in 2010 to the working public, the sensor is a joke.!" It uses the most advanced sensor-architecture available (serial production just started about 2 months ago) - why is that a joke? Because it doesn't offer 1080p-video or the image processing doesn't use RAW noise-reduction? The Kodak/Dalsa-CCDs offered the highest overall IQ of their time - I don't think that will change in the future. It took 4 years to come up with the new generation, I don't think it will become outdated this fast. And yes, I've already seen a few early samples and they were already in another league resolution-wise than any 35mm-system. Let's wait and see. "Canon 35/1.4 is a better lens than the Leica M equivalent, based on four years of using both" You should send your Summilux to Solms... All L-Series-lenses I've used had serious trouble with open-aperture performance, abberations, CA and especially build quality, the shorter the focal length, the worse it gets. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcusperkins Posted March 28, 2009 Share #49 Posted March 28, 2009 Assumptions and opinions they may be, but they are based on past performance and experience of using and dealing with Leica - which has not been particularly positive in my experience. Up until this point in time Leica service has been slow at best. Every lens I've bought for the M8 has not matched the body, and the body itself had to be sent off twice to get it right (UK, then Germany). I even went through three 28/2.8 Asph lenses, each one did not focus properly - last one was sent back to Germany for callibration. The whole process took months. It's a nightmare for a professional photographer. To Leica's full and lasting credit, they did eventually deal with each problem, but when we're spending so much money on this equipment, should there be so many problems in the first place? After three years, and all the firmware updates, my M8 still freezes. Why? The MP is considered the best M ever made, but is essentially no better than the M3. Some progress. Anybody who's been through that kind of experience is naturally going to view the S2 with a raised eyebrow. Leica is the company that put the S2 into the public realm long before it might be available, so it is natural that everybody wants to express an opinion, whether it is good or bad. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcusperkins Posted March 28, 2009 Share #50 Posted March 28, 2009 All L-Series-lenses I've used had serious trouble with open-aperture performance, abberations, CA and especially build quality, the shorter the focal length, the worse it gets. Clearly you've been as unfortunate with Canon equipment as I have with Leica. Problem is that Leica equipment is so much more expensive. The bottom line is I am happy to pay a substantial premium for quality and reliability - Well, I'm paying the premium, but ending up getting frustrated. Seems with the S2, there'll be a premium to pay for the equipment, then another premium to pay for the service. Where does it stop? Perhaps I'll buy myself a new Mercedes instead, and use the change for a holiday - it'll keep my wife happier Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eronald Posted March 28, 2009 Share #51 Posted March 28, 2009 I explained: It's the ISO. The sensor is basically a 100 ISO sensor, and the camera's resolution is so high that 100 ISO is not really enough any more for handheld stability. As I said, I have experience with digital backs, I own a P45+ and used a P65+ a week ago, and camera shake is the biggest problem with handheld shooting of these large hi-rez cameras. That sensor is a turn off. Leica should get their sensors from Canon or Nikon or Fuji or even Red. And yes, my P45+ makes the Nikon D3x or equivalent images look outclassed, easily. As long as it is safely sitting on a tripod. The minute it's handheld it's out of focus, shaken, and generally unhappy. Edmund "I think that the specs in 2008 were ok; for sale in 2010 to the working public, the sensor is a joke.!" It uses the most advanced sensor-architecture available (serial production just started about 2 months ago) - why is that a joke? Because it doesn't offer 1080p-video or the image processing doesn't use RAW noise-reduction? The Kodak/Dalsa-CCDs offered the highest overall IQ of their time - I don't think that will change in the future. It took 4 years to come up with the new generation, I don't think it will become outdated this fast. And yes, I've already seen a few early samples and they were already in another league resolution-wise than any 35mm-system. . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfarkas Posted March 28, 2009 Share #52 Posted March 28, 2009 I think that the specs in 2008 were ok; for sale in 2010 to the working public, the sensor is a joke. Leica should announce a sensor and electronics replacement upgrade program at launch. I have a P45+ and a D3x; the P45+ never yields a sharp *handheld* image. On a tripod, the P45+ wipes the floor with the Nikon. The D3x works nicely handheld because it has excellent AF and can do 1600 ISO. Conclusion: ISO 100 simply doesn't cut it it for handheld, nor does single point AF and focus and recompose. The S2 is basically dead at launch unless hat sensor gets updated to something that can do ISO 800 decently. Edmund The S2 should offer 800 and 1600 ISO in full res, and offer up to 3200 (and possibly 6400) ISO in 9.3 MP pixel-binning mode. This is where the latest CCD and ASIC technology in the S2 is really far ahead, actually. The S2 has the fastest on-board image processing of any MF system. Real-time is real-time. No delay whatsoever in turning on, shooting, reviewing, zooming, etc. The Maestro processor in the S2 is even able to turn out DNG+JPG large in the same amount of time as DNG only. Your P45+ has a sensor that is four years old from original date of manufacture (2005). The DMR and M8 both use the same 6.8u Kodak CCD tech. The KAF-39000 in your P45+ back is a great sensor, but the KAF-37500 in the S2 is truly a generation ahead. Better S/N, higher ISO capability, greater dynamic range, and faster data readout. Hardly a joke. The S2 is also the only MF system using offset microlenses (just like the M8 and DMR). This compensates for any light falloff due to a steep angle of incidence towards the edge of the frame. Phase and Hasselblad both compensates for this in software (LCC and DAC, respectively). The LCD screen on the S2 is head and shoulders better than any I've seen on MFD backs. 3" with good resolution and visible in daylight. The lack of good quality screens in MFD has always baffled me. It seemed that the more you spent, the worse the LCD you got. It is the first LCD that I've seen offered with adjustable screen brightness, adjustable backlight brightness, and an ambient light sensor. The top-deck color OLED screen is also a first, not just for MF, but any DSLR. These are just a few examples of why the S2 will actually be the most advanced MF on the market. Believe me, there are more and this is without discussing the lenses. A lot of people keep harping on the fact that the S2 isn't really MF. Well, the P30+, H3DII-31, and Leaf Aptus-II 6 all use a 33x44mm sensor. Most would agree that these are "real" MF. The S2 uses a 30x45mm sensor. So, the total sensor area of these "well respected MF backs" is a whopping 7% larger than that of the S2. I personally like to shoot in 2:3 ratio and if I crop one of the 3:4 backs, I'll actually get a smaller capture area than the S2. DOA? I don't think so. How can putting the latest sensor and computing tech in a rugged, small, easy-to-handle, weather-sealed package coupled with the most uncompromising and outstanding optics ever produced be DOA?! Maybe I'm spoiled because I've gotten to play with camera and had access to the product managers for greater insight into the technical and marketing aspects of the S2, but I just don't understand the ongoing negativity. The S2 is out-of-the-box thinking at its best, by a company that has the internal resources, the motivation, and the capitalization to make it happen. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eronald Posted March 28, 2009 Share #53 Posted March 28, 2009 Sorry, I think the lens repertoire is great, the format is great, but the focus system and the sensor should be specced differently. Both are at least one generation behind what can be expected to be on sale next year when the S2 is really available in quantity. This is just my opinion of course, as a potential client - other potential customers are free to have their own opinions. PS. If Leica made third party versions of its R lenses available in N or C mount I'd be running to buy a couple. What's stopping them? Edmund Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted March 28, 2009 Share #54 Posted March 28, 2009 I think you are digging a hole for yourself here, Carsten - the idea that only those likely to buy the S2 are 'entitled' to express an opinion about the mater is too ludicrous to even warrant further discussion. It seems that everyone is reading what I wrote as "shut up", which isn't the case at all. I am asking for people to show a little restraint before posting, as opinions are a dime a dozen. The forum used to be small enough that everyone could post their opinion, and it would remain manageable, but there are so many people here now that if everyone posts their opinion, the forum wouldn't be worth reading, and some threads are heading in that direction. The problem is partially that lots of posters don't even bother to read the thread before posting, and end up duplicating previous posts, partly that hardly anyone bothers checking their facts before posting, partly that most of the "facts" are only opinions, and partly hostile comments which end up in ridiculous fights all the time. For some reason, some of the S2 threads have gotten really personal, and the R-discontinuation thread was also like that. After a while, it just isn't worth reading any more. Yeah, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I think it would be prudent for people to just stop for a second and think "does this add to the thread?" before posting. In fact, this topic should probably be moved to the "About the Leica Forum" forum, but no one goes there. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentleman Villain Posted March 28, 2009 Share #55 Posted March 28, 2009 The S2 should offer 800 and 1600 ISO in full res, and offer up to 3200 (and possibly 6400) ISO in 9.3 MP pixel-binning mode. This is where the latest CCD and ASIC technology in the S2 is really far ahead, actually. The S2 has the fastest on-board image processing of any MF system. Real-time is real-time. No delay whatsoever in turning on, shooting, reviewing, zooming, etc. The Maestro processor in the S2 is even able to turn out DNG+JPG large in the same amount of time as DNG only. Your P45+ has a sensor that is four years old from original date of manufacture (2005). The DMR and M8 both use the same 6.8u Kodak CCD tech. The KAF-39000 in your P45+ back is a great sensor, but the KAF-37500 in the S2 is truly a generation ahead. Better S/N, higher ISO capability, greater dynamic range, and faster data readout. Hardly a joke. The S2 is also the only MF system using offset microlenses (just like the M8 and DMR). This compensates for any light falloff due to a steep angle of incidence towards the edge of the frame. Phase and Hasselblad both compensates for this in software (LCC and DAC, respectively). The LCD screen on the S2 is head and shoulders better than any I've seen on MFD backs. 3" with good resolution and visible in daylight. The lack of good quality screens in MFD has always baffled me. It seemed that the more you spent, the worse the LCD you got. It is the first LCD that I've seen offered with adjustable screen brightness, adjustable backlight brightness, and an ambient light sensor. The top-deck color OLED screen is also a first, not just for MF, but any DSLR. These are just a few examples of why the S2 will actually be the most advanced MF on the market. Believe me, there are more and this is without discussing the lenses. A lot of people keep harping on the fact that the S2 isn't really MF. Well, the P30+, H3DII-31, and Leaf Aptus-II 6 all use a 33x44mm sensor. Most would agree that these are "real" MF. The S2 uses a 30x45mm sensor. So, the total sensor area of these "well respected MF backs" is a whopping 7% larger than that of the S2. I personally like to shoot in 2:3 ratio and if I crop one of the 3:4 backs, I'll actually get a smaller capture area than the S2. DOA? I don't think so. How can putting the latest sensor and computing tech in a rugged, small, easy-to-handle, weather-sealed package coupled with the most uncompromising and outstanding optics ever produced be DOA?! Maybe I'm spoiled because I've gotten to play with camera and had access to the product managers for greater insight into the technical and marketing aspects of the S2, but I just don't understand the ongoing negativity. The S2 is out-of-the-box thinking at its best, by a company that has the internal resources, the motivation, and the capitalization to make it happen. David Dammit, now you're making me want an S2 again I've been taking my time to figure out what to do...I'd like to get a Leica but keep going back and forth between the S2 and the M8.2....arghh....this isn't getting any easier LOL Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted March 28, 2009 Share #56 Posted March 28, 2009 Would be great to discuss with knowledgeable experts for sure. Would we have to pay for that? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mooky Posted March 28, 2009 Share #57 Posted March 28, 2009 Here's an idea; For those with bad experiences and doubtful feelings about the S2/Leica - don't buy it/Leicas, don't use it/Leicas. There, your bad experiences and doubts are gone and now you can be happy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcusperkins Posted March 28, 2009 Share #58 Posted March 28, 2009 Here's an idea; For those with bad experiences and doubtful feelings about the S2/Leica - don't buy it/Leicas, don't use it/Leicas. There, your bad experiences and doubts are gone and now you can be happy. Not an idea, it's a reality. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 29, 2009 Share #59 Posted March 29, 2009 So why are they posting in Leica forums then? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfarkas Posted March 29, 2009 Share #60 Posted March 29, 2009 Would be great to discuss with knowledgeable experts for sure. Would we have to pay for that? I'd be happy to discuss the S2 with anyone who calls me... for FREE. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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