trs Posted February 12, 2009 Share #141 Posted February 12, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) How do we know Leica is not making money? Do we have access to their P&L? I think I am just being naive thinking that Leica is OK, but can't see why they would. Overall Leica customer can still afford Leica. -tanka Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 12, 2009 Posted February 12, 2009 Hi trs, Take a look here Panasonic in talks to buy Leica from Mr. Kaufmann. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Riley Posted February 12, 2009 Share #142 Posted February 12, 2009 You dont get Leica quality in a job shop The part of the factory where the lenses are made is sealed from the rest, populated by people in White coats , with kit that tests and checks every single element. It's very sophisticated and it takes hours to make each element The metal parts are precision made (the cut away Tri-Elmar is a work of art) heres a little story of interest During WWII, when Rolls Royce engine manufacture and development at Derby became so injured by bombing, RR found themselves unable to supply US aircraft builders such as Republic with the number of engines required. They wouldn't have been able to fulfil 10% of the orders. So US auto makers were seconded to supply, and Packard was the chosen manufacturer. When the first batch of engines was built, they couldn't even turn the engines over, the tolerances that auto builders use were a lot finer than RR by virtue of mass manufacture. RR hand fit parts, each component was selected from a batch and hand fit to the block, for auto makers this process went out with Henry Ford. Packard had adopted standardization, and could build to finer tolerances than RR, and this was around 1941/2 Eventually Packard got the line running, but the whole engine was virtually redesigned for a different tolerance spec, and eventually was to produce more power. I think you vastly underestimate the manufacturing capability of CNC maching, indeed I know so. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riley Posted February 12, 2009 Share #143 Posted February 12, 2009 You dont get Leica quality in a job shop The part of the factory where the lenses are made is sealed from the rest, populated by people in White coats , with kit that tests and checks every single element. It's very sophisticated and it takes hours to make each element The metal parts are precision made (the cut away Tri-Elmar is a work of art) Panasonics machines are capable of spitting lenses out in seconds, as it stands right now is that the same? Absolutely not, but I feel it would be within 95% of what Leica do, that last 5% is what Leica achieve by hand, with caveats on metal internals and the size of the optics. All Panasonic have to do is rejig for finer tolerances, adopt better materials selection, and utilize Leica's know how in design, and deepen the polishing regime. All manufacturers use machines like these, the difference between kit lenses and their best optics is the build design, choice in materials, the time they spend on the grinds and polishing. the worlds very best optical machines, those of the huge telescopes built for deep space astronomy are built by machines, wherever those machines exist. Still hand processes are not uncommon, even Olympus top quality lenses like the 300/2.8 are hand made and available only on a MTO (made to order) basis. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted February 12, 2009 Share #144 Posted February 12, 2009 No panic, please ... even if a takeover happens, Panasonic could offer to rehire some Leica employees, right? If they want to continue to work in the way they are used to, why not? Japanese companies operating in the US hire US employees, Japanese companies operating in UK hire British employees, Japanese companies operating in Germany hires German employees, what's the friggin' big deal? Maike Harberts used to work for Canon Deutscheland, don't you know? If "Made in Germany" makes you happy why Panasonic can't do it? Next time, Panasonic executives will show you how "we" build "Leica" lenses in Solms. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riley Posted February 12, 2009 Share #145 Posted February 12, 2009 this page is a bit old now, but you can get the idea AjaxNetPhoto.com Photography news & information: Modernology of Manufacturing "Their partnership with Leica started in August 2000 for video cameras; it was then expanded to digital cameras in July 2001. In the past two years, Matsushita invented their own automation system, which enabled them to reduce the production cost to half." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldie Posted February 12, 2009 Share #146 Posted February 12, 2009 I find some of the descriptions of fine mechanical engineering in the last few posts glib in the extreme. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riley Posted February 12, 2009 Share #147 Posted February 12, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) it is necessary to reduce the jargon FWIW, I have an honours degree in Business Aviation, and majored in Industrial Engineering Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikFive Posted February 12, 2009 Share #148 Posted February 12, 2009 No offense Andy and im not usually a Leica basher, but I have heard of three different people getting faulty(not working at all like they should) brand new 50 lux asph´s from the dealer. That shouldnt occur when they are hand crafted and hand checked by people in white coats. I do love Leica glass though You dont get Leica quality in a job shop The part of the factory where the lenses are made is sealed from the rest, populated by people in White coats , with kit that tests and checks every single element. It's very sophisticated and it takes hours to make each element The metal parts are precision made (the cut away Tri-Elmar is a work of art) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted February 12, 2009 Share #149 Posted February 12, 2009 I find some of the descriptions of fine mechanical engineering in the last few posts glib in the extreme. Whereas I found them accessible and interesting. To each their own. Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted February 12, 2009 Share #150 Posted February 12, 2009 I don't think Leica need help making lenses - they define the state of the art though it's only achieved if cost is no object, witness the new Summiluxes and the Noctilux. There would be scope for a more value orientated lens line. Originally that was the Summarits but even the humble 35mm is now about the same as the stellar Nikon 14-24mm f2.8 zoom. Their problem is surely cameras. The new world of sensors, electronics and software is not their stock-in-trade and that's where they need help. That's where Panasonic could bring something to the party. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
4X5B&W Posted February 12, 2009 Share #151 Posted February 12, 2009 The main reason why most Leica lenses are better than lenses by other manufacturers is that they use the very best glass, regardless of cost. Do we really think Cosina is using the most expensive glass for their designs.....I don't think so. Most manufacturers use computers to design lenses that are pretty close to those of Leica or Zeiss, what they don't do is spring for the very best glass to make the design optimum, because they know that no one will pay Leica like prices for these lenses. Yes, Leica probably puts more effort into QC, but the manufacturing tolerances for Cosina probably aren't all that much different to Leica or Zeiss. Better materials and QC, is essentially what we pay for with Leica lenses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldie Posted February 12, 2009 Share #152 Posted February 12, 2009 I agree with your points Mark. However speaking of Nikon lenses, I was recently using a new 24-70 f2.8 and compared to a Leica lense the build quality was pretty dismal, in particular the front element assembly can be gripped and easily wobbled around; I wonder what this says about optical centering etc. It's my guess that a Japanese built lense of the same quality as Leica produce would only be marginally cheaper and this solely due to the historically lower wage rates in Japan. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldie Posted February 12, 2009 Share #153 Posted February 12, 2009 All Panasonic have to do is rejig for finer tolerances, adopt better materials selection, and utilize Leica's know how in design, and deepen the polishing regime. And that is where the costs start to rise exponentially. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted February 12, 2009 Share #154 Posted February 12, 2009 Their problem is surely cameras. The new world of sensors, electronics and software is not their stock-in-trade and that's where they need help. That's where Panasonic could bring something to the party. Who will help in a world where capitalism rules? Been with Panasonic for so many years, Leica still can't build a D Lux boasting Made in Germany. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
graeme_hutton Posted February 12, 2009 Share #155 Posted February 12, 2009 Just think - An M9 by next month, M9.2 the following year, M10 in 2010, M11 in 2011, M12 in 2012 and so on.......Should have some incapacitated with expectation here I would think. Graeme Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted February 12, 2009 Share #156 Posted February 12, 2009 I am sure that Leica don't want or need to build a D Lux in Germany. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted February 12, 2009 Share #157 Posted February 12, 2009 Better materials and QC, is essentially what we pay for with Leica lenses. Adding labor/operational costs in front of everything ... I just went to the Leica corporate web site but can't find the pdf anymore. There used to be a financial disclosure or something like with numbers explaining their cost structures. Leica's operational costs are a whopping 40% something, almost equal to their material costs, which could never happen in any Japanese company. What drags down American's auto industry is almost the same thing, all the union leaders used to play hardball are now kneeing down and begging their employers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted February 12, 2009 Share #158 Posted February 12, 2009 I am sure that Leica don't want or need to build a D Lux in Germany. I can bet they don't know how ... no offense intended of course, just a matter of fact. If they know how to build a D Lux, then they must know about Panasonic's Venus engine because it's mostly a camera on one chip, by the time they know about Venus, then they'll have much less to no difficulty in building a M9, R10, or whatever. Leica has almost gained nothing from the treaty with Panasonic except OEM'd these D Lux C Lux cameras, how much have these cameras contributed to their bottom line? they don't help their corporate image either. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted February 12, 2009 Share #159 Posted February 12, 2009 ... DPR forum provides more useful information than all this blabla here... You must be joking. There's far more disinformation, ego protection, brand fanboyism and rumor-mongering on DPR than I've ever seen here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
xjr Posted February 12, 2009 Share #160 Posted February 12, 2009 A disaster of Biblical proportions ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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