Bostontom Posted January 31, 2009 Share #1 Posted January 31, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hello all, I've tiptoed into the Leica world with a used Digilux 2, which I love; my favorite camera ever. I'm now thinking about replacing my Nikon D 80 with another system that could accomodate Leica R lenses ... my cost-effective way of expanding my ability to use Leica optics. I'm a truly amateur photographer, with no professional aspirations, so I'm not looking for tools to make a living -- just the capacity to have fun and make images that satisfy me. So far I've been playing with the idea of getting a Panasonic L1 (roughly a 1,000 dollars cheaper on the used market right now the Digilux 3; which means that while I would prefer the red dot for all the reasons one might, that preference is priced out right now). The virtue of that purchase is that it starts me out with a lens that everyone seems to think is very good, the 14-50 mm f.2,8. Also, I've seen on this forum examples of digilux 3 + R lens photography that were very impressive. But it occurs to me that Canon and Olympus cameras can with the appropriate adaptors do just fine with older R lenses -- and I wonder if there is any thought here about picking up a lightly used body in either line and adding those lenses. Any experience comparing a 20D or 30D or any of the Olympus bodies using R lenses to the L1/Digilux 3 twins similarly kitted out? For another approach -- any thoughts on the new Panny G1 plus Leica glass? All this said knowing that it ain't the box, but the eye and hand behind the box that makes the photo... best T. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 31, 2009 Posted January 31, 2009 Hi Bostontom, Take a look here Old R lens plus what camera body question. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Bob Ross Posted January 31, 2009 Share #2 Posted January 31, 2009 You'll be manually focusing with R lenses, so the viewfinder quality will be important. In the 4/3rds line the E-1 is good and the E-3 is best for manually focusing without a focus aide focusing screen. The G1 of the micro 4/3rds line may even be better for manual focus, since you can magnify the EVF & the EVF doesn dim as you close down. I'll let the Canon owners tell you about their rigs. Bob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruhayat Posted January 31, 2009 Share #3 Posted January 31, 2009 One vote here for the Olympus E-1 -- the Kodak sensor makes a tremendous combination with the Elmarit-R 28mm, in terms of colours and overall "look". Great for street and environmental portraiture. I have also used it with even better success with the 50mm Summicron-R as a 100mm effective portrait lens. On the other hand, after doing a couple of weddings as a favour, I find myself wishing for a Canon 5D for the low light performance, faster speeds and increased DOF. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overgaard Posted January 31, 2009 Share #4 Posted January 31, 2009 I would say Canon 5D or 5DII till prices of Leica DMR comes down and/or a R10 and a R10 mini (Canon 5D equivalent) emerges. Something in my hearth refuses to use Canon, but per statistics, when I look at the amount of professional pictures taken with Canon 5D and what the users say, I'm sad to report that I might be more stubborn than right ;-) A lot of great pictures comes out of 5D, and in analyzing them, what they lack is what Leica R lenses can add to them. I'm also impressed with Nikon D2x and D3x but none of them allow R-lenses unless you rebuild the R-lenses so they will never fit a Leica R camera again. Would be a pity. Some Nikon lenses look great, such as the 17-55/2.8 but somehow, for me definitely, it wouldn't be following ones heart (choosing between camera manufacturers who has only a few great lenses and Leica who has almost ONLY great lenses, I would go for the one with the proven record of best technology and philosophy – and that's Leica). But as things are currently, I would look at the 2nd hand Canon 5D market, the R-adaptor and then get some decent R lenses second-hand like the 50mm/2.0, 80mm/1.4, 35mm/2.8. All R lenses are available at great prices these days. Not necessarily compared to Canon kit lenses, but compared to what they used to cost second-hand. And this way gear up for the real digital R cameras. And when the dust has settled in a few years, all you have lost is the R-adaptor which you wont be using anymore. The 5D can be sold again easily in the next few years. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted January 31, 2009 Share #5 Posted January 31, 2009 ...A lot of great pictures comes out of 5D, and in analyzing them, what they lack is what Leica R lenses can add to them... Agree Thorsten. I've got my 5D new for 1500 EUR (should cost less than 1400€ now) and it takes very nice pictures with R lenses, to a point where i don't expect to sell it when/if the R10 is launched. Will make an excellent spare DSLR for me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
monza Posted February 1, 2009 Share #6 Posted February 1, 2009 I'm now thinking about replacing my Nikon D 80 with another system that could accomodate Leica R lenses With a Leitax bayonet it's possible to use Leica R lenses on Nikon. I converted a 50/2 Summicron-R and use it on a D700. Leica lens for Nikon cameras Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bostontom Posted February 5, 2009 Author Share #7 Posted February 5, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Thanks everyone (and sorry for the delay in acknowledging your help -- start of term where I teach plus life its ownself intervened. Work is the curse of the photographing classes). I get a sense that heading towards a Canon 5D might be the way; lots of camera for reasonably short money these days, and I don't see anyone giving a lot of love to the Digilux 3. I'll have to dither for a while, and try some friends' cameras, but this is a great help. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted February 5, 2009 Share #8 Posted February 5, 2009 ...I'm also impressed with Nikon D2x and D3x but none of them allow R-lenses unless you rebuild the R-lenses so they will never fit a Leica R camera again.. The leitax.com conversion to Nikon F mount is completely reversible. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterWerner Posted February 5, 2009 Share #9 Posted February 5, 2009 Yes, interesting that nobody feels moved to say anything about the Digilux 3..: I bought it one year and a half ago. I use the Digilux 3 as an amateur and I have not regretted purchasing it. The camera has obvious drawbacks, in particular the small/dark viewfinder. This is a problem especially if you are spoilt by the bright old R system viewfinders and, as indirectly pointed out by Bob (#2), makes focusing quite challenging. Moreover, the small sensor entails the problem of a big crop factor (had to buy a 28mm Elmarit in order to get something that at least approximates a 50mm lens). The kit zoom lens is good in my view, although I should add that I rarely use it – I mainly bought the Digilux 3 as a vehicle that enables me to use my R lenses again which had gathered dust for years. In my experience, the Digilux 3 works very well with R lenses. I have had prints made of 20x30cm and up to this size - at least - the small size of the sensor is absolutely no problem. Probably the most important thing to be said about the Digilux 3 is, however, that, with its shutter time-wheel, it feels like a camera. Peter PS By the way, although I am not well-informed, I reckon that Digilux 3 prices should in the meantime have dropped to an area where they are quite tolerable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemalk Posted February 5, 2009 Share #10 Posted February 5, 2009 I'll also second Peter's reply - I've been using a Digilux 3 with R glass for about a year now and it works great. Manual focusing is sometimes challenging in dim light , but I purchased the Olympus magnifier for the viewfinder and it works well. The E-3 has a nice, bright viewfinder, but I haven't used R glass on it. You can also install a manual focusing screen like bolorentzen(sp?) from Katz Eye to help on the Digilux 3. For me - the Digilux 3 fits perfectly with R glass. It looks like it belongs. It just doesn't feel right to glom it onto some other body. That being said, the 5D does seem to be an EXTREMELY nice full-frame body and it would help with keeping an extremely shallow depth of field with fast R glass - and the high ISO quality is impressive. They're fairly low-priced now that it's been superseded by a newer model. If I hadn't just sunk a sizable chunk into an M8, I'd get one and an adapter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
echorec Posted February 6, 2009 Share #11 Posted February 6, 2009 Another vote for the 5D. I am very pleased with it and what it delivers with my R-glass. Get a used mark I, they are super cheap these days. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterWerner Posted February 6, 2009 Share #12 Posted February 6, 2009 Until lemalk’s reply, I almost thought I must the only Digilux 3 user on this planet… It is quite sad, in my view, that the Digilux 3 has so few supporters, also here in the Leica-Userforum. Of course, even Leica’s support for the D-System has always been only half-hearted. (Frustrated R-users will probably respond that this is more than can be said of Leica’s support for the R-system…) Also, it was pretty obvious rather soon that the Digilux 3 would be only an interim measure (until some genuine Leica body, R and digital, will be released, whenever that may be) as well as a compromise (disgruntled R-users can use their superb lenses on an affordable body with the red dot again, the whole thing rounded off with a zoom lens for the shorter focal lengths). If you are aware of its limitations, the Digilux 3 is a really good camera. I was pleased, to say the least, when I discovered that it brings out the well-known characteristics of my old R-lenses, eg, I realised immediately which of my digital pictures I had made with the 180mm Apo-Telyt (which is probably a bit of an overkill for a 7.5 MP sensor anyway…). In particular, the Digilux 3 gives you the feeling that you are in command of things, ie it is not one of those beeping and blinking robots which encourage the photographer to conveniently rely on the almost numerous automatic features they offer. I particularly liked to use my R6.2 and the Digilux 3, at least in a number of ways, reminds me of the R6.2. A Digilux 3 probably will not fetch a considerable price if you try and sell it in a couple of years time, but you will probably not even want to sell it anyway and you should be able to get hold of one of them rather cheaply now. Also, I would not exactly bet my life that a second hand Canon D5 mark I, when sold (for the second time) in a couple of years time will turn you into a terribly rich man. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted February 6, 2009 Share #13 Posted February 6, 2009 Difficult to compare a 4/3 7.5 MP to a FF 13 MP i guess. How much cheaper is the Leica? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterWerner Posted February 6, 2009 Share #14 Posted February 6, 2009 I do not know and I did not even write that the Digilux 3 is “cheaper” than a Canon 5D mk I. What I wrote is that you should be able to get a Digilux 3 rather cheaply these days. This is something quite different, I believe. The term “cheaper” would imply a comparison which, as you point out, is hardly possible. I would agree to this, although I would not reduce a comparison to a plain calculation along the lines of “how many high quality/high ISO pixels do I get per euro or dollar?”. However, this is likely to lead to one of those futile discussions of whether a Leica (any Leica, but in particular if it is only a Panaleica) is worth its price. Rather, the point that I wanted to make is that the price of digital bodies has dropped quite rapidly after one year at the most - and this applies to (Pana)Leicas and Canons alike. Therefore, no matter what digital body you buy, it is not very realistic, in my view, to expect that you will be able to retrieve a lot of money by selling the body a couple of years later. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted February 6, 2009 Share #15 Posted February 6, 2009 Well i'm just trying to understand your point Peter. It is you who compared the Digilux 3 to the 5D didn't you? If its new or s/h price is close to the Canon's, as you seem to suggest it, this responds quite well to your question why the Digilux 3 is not supported that well don't you think so? Very few R lenses are wide enough to remain so on a 4/3 camera aren't they so i did not even ask myself if i could possibly use any Leica or other branded 4/3s AFAIC. And frankly i don't quite see how a 4/3 could serve as a spare camera to the R10 if it is full frame as expected. YMMV of course. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterWerner Posted February 6, 2009 Share #16 Posted February 6, 2009 lct “Peter. It is you who compared the Digilux 3 to the 5D didn’t you?” – No, I certainly did not! If you are really trying to understand my point, may I politely ask you to read my replies from A-Z? You will then soon realise that my replies do not consist of a Digilux 3 versus Canon 5D-comparison. Rather, I have summarised some of my impressions gained while using the Digilux 3. In doing so, I did not blindly praise the Digilux 3, but directed attention to its major drawbacks, as I experienced them. – After all, Bostontom enquired about experience reports. The only very brief mentioning of - not even a comparison with - the Canon 5D that I have made (before I was invited by you to explain why the Digilux 3 should be “cheaper” than the Canon 5D) was in the context of prices for digital bodies which tend to drop without recovery only a few months after their release. This applies to cameras of any brand and was written by me in response to Thorsten’s concluding remark that you could easily sell a used Canon 5D in the next few years. Yes you can (pardon the pun), but will you recover much money? As far as the current prices of the Digilux 3 and the Canon 5D are concerned, again, I did not mean to imply anything in terms of a comparison. In fact, I could not care less - I want to buy neither a second Digilux 3 nor my first Canon 5D and Bostontom will find out about current prices himself easily. To be clear again, I did not and do not want to compare the Digilux 3 and the Canon 5D. Why should I? It is obvious that these cameras are very dissimilar, the Canon no doubt being electronically and in terms of the sensor far ahead of the Digilux while the latter has some of the classic Leica feel to it. - Bostontom owns a Digilux 2 and he will most likely take into account the similarities between the Digilux 2 and 3 versus the electronically more advanced Canon when deciding what to do. Enjoy taking pictures with your Canon 5D and Leica-lenses, lct! By the way, in the other postings of this thread, there is not a single critical word to be found about the Canon 5D mk I. I presume the Canon is not entirely flawless and I am sure Bostontom who initiated this thread by asking for an experience report, would be interested in reading something about this. - I cannot add any experiences here and if I could I would, of course, immediately stand accused of hurling blasphemous “comparative” insults at the Canon 5D. (In order to avoid right from the start the need to defend myself again against something that I have not said or written: I plead guilty on all accounts!) WDYUAIOWOWYM? Regards, Peter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted February 6, 2009 Share #17 Posted February 6, 2009 ...my replies do not consist of a Digilux 3 versus Canon 5D-comparison... OK point taken Peter. I'm not interested in brands at all personally. I just try to help the OP. For someone expecting to use R lenses on a digital body, my best advise is the 5D by far. Just my own opinion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
denniswksit Posted February 9, 2009 Share #18 Posted February 9, 2009 I am amateur photographer and using the Digilux 3 for about a year. I am very pleased with the quality of the camera, its feel of control, and, most of all, it makes my old R lens alive. Though Digilux series has dropped out of the line, given that the price of it is more affordable, I would say that it is worth to purchase one now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bostontom Posted February 9, 2009 Author Share #19 Posted February 9, 2009 Thanks for all the continued replies. I'm going to play a bit with some friends' gear -- see how the Canon 5d feels in the hand compared to either the D3 or the Panny near clone (for which there is an astonishingly wide price differece these days). I will remain on the sidelines of the debate between those for whom the idea of Canon is simply anathema and those willing to entertain it. I'm moreinterested in getting my hands on good glass. best T. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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