Riccis Posted January 17, 2009 Share #41 Posted January 17, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) If you haven't read the latest LFI ... Jamie, here's what Dr. Kaufmann says: 1.33x is absolutely the right choice, anyone who is desperately waiting for a full frame M is a victim falling for a marketing trick, you only get a larger file when shooting full frame (I guess this applies to the S2 too, did Dr. Kaufmann really say so or is it made up by LFI? ) ... but it might come eventually if market decides it's needed. We may have to wait another 2 years for the R10. Yes, and I'm not very thrilled about this statement... BTW, statements like these were also made by Nikon when they didn't have a FF camera, touting the benefits of the DX crop and how it uses the sweet spot of the lens, remember? Look at them now... Oh well, I'm happy to be back shooting film anyway... I don't have my copy handy but what do you think about the statement that says something to the effect that the R10 will not be priced as a mainstream camera (or something like that...) Cheers, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 17, 2009 Posted January 17, 2009 Hi Riccis, Take a look here price of the new S2. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
marknorton Posted January 17, 2009 Share #42 Posted January 17, 2009 I see, so the justification for not building a FF M8 at all is that the files are too large. That's a limp excuse if ever I heard one. My D3x churns out NEFs at 24Mb and TIFFs at 72Mb and it's just fine, thank you. The S2? 110Mb+. The real reason that 1.33 is "absolutely the right choice" is that, right now, it's the only choice so if it's a case of "this" or nothing, "this" is better than nothing. However, when shooting Nikon FF, I'm increasingly aware of that expensively acquired imaging circle on my Leica M lenses going to waste. For me, a FF M9 cannot come soon enough, though my guess is 2012. Sorry Leica, but a cropped M9 will just not cut it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted January 17, 2009 Share #43 Posted January 17, 2009 I don't have my copy handy but what do you think about the statement that says something to the effect that the R10 will not be priced as a mainstream camera (or something like that...) Well, by "mainstream" I guess they meant to say 400 or 500 dollars, such as the Rebel or a D60, I wouldn't mind picking up 3 R10s at $3000 for each. Don't get me wrong, Dr. Kaufmann has my utmost admiration, without him Leica is already dead in the water but why such a great gentleman doesn't listen to the forum, these are the most hardcore Leica aficionados on earth. I think the S2 is just a waste of time, they may sell hundreds or even thousands units, but even if you take the whole medium format market, it's still not more than 0.5% of the 35mm market. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted January 17, 2009 Share #44 Posted January 17, 2009 Sorry Leica, but a cropped M9 will just not cut it. Mark, you know full well that the reason there isn't a full framed M is not because they couldn't fit one into an M body, it's because of image quality issues with the available sensors. Have those issues been resolved? If not would you be happy with a full frame sensor in the M9 that performed poorly? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander † Posted January 17, 2009 Share #45 Posted January 17, 2009 Mark, you know full well that the reason there isn't a full framed M is not because they couldn't fit one into an M body, it's because of image quality issues with the available sensors. Have those issues been resolved? If not would you be happy with a full frame sensor in the M9 that performed poorly? The current M8 sensor is almost 3 years old. In that time other manufacturers have made leaps and bounds forward in sensor technology. Leica does not even have a 15mp sensor in the current size and with the current iso performance. What on earth are they doing? Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted January 17, 2009 Share #46 Posted January 17, 2009 What on earth are they doing? I would imagine developing the M9. They are a small company.They are never going to match the 18month product cycles of Nikon or Canon. If you need to upgrade within those time frames then I suspect you'll have to look at a manufacturer other than Leica. Anyhow, back to the original question, is there a sensor available that would allow use of the existing lens range? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisC Posted January 17, 2009 Share #47 Posted January 17, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) .... Leica does not even have a 15mp sensor in the current size and with the current iso performance........f So you want denser pixels of necessarily smaller size but with at least the same light gathering abilities of the current M8 sensor to give equalled ISO performance? I'd write more only my attention has just been diverted by a flying pig going past my window. Jamie - Thank you for concisely nailing the myth that wedding photographers have been waiting for the S2, it's a view that never did make sense. .............. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander † Posted January 17, 2009 Share #48 Posted January 17, 2009 So you want denser pixels of necessarily smaller size but with at least the same light gathering abilities of the current M8 sensor to give equalled ISO performance? I'd write more only my attention has just been diverted by a flying pig going past my window. .............. Chris Well if they cant use a bigger sensor, yes I do want more pixels with the same or even better high iso performance. Are you saying that if we cant have a bigger sensor then that is it? I dont think so and I certainly hope not. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riccis Posted January 17, 2009 Share #49 Posted January 17, 2009 Well, by "mainstream" I guess they meant to say 400 or 500 dollars, such as the Rebel or a D60, I wouldn't mind picking up 3 R10s at $3000 for each. Don't get me wrong, Dr. Kaufmann has my utmost admiration, without him Leica is already dead in the water but why such a great gentleman doesn't listen to the forum, these are the most hardcore Leica aficionados on earth. I think the S2 is just a waste of time, they may sell hundreds or even thousands units, but even if you take the whole medium format market, it's still not more than 0.5% of the 35mm market. I see what you mean, but to me mainstream for a FF pro DSLR is $4k-$6k hence the statement that the R10 will not be priced as a mainstream camera indicates that it will be in the $10k+ range... All assumptions in my part, of course. I also think the S2 is a waste of time and rather see them concentrate in evolving the M line... That is a camera that wedding photogs will love to use due to the small form factor and high quality lenses and even replace DSLR outfits for Ms if the high ISO can be comparable to at least those of the Nikon D300 (this is the feedback that I receive from my peers and not something I am making up)... Yes, FF can wait but there must be an updated sensor if Leica wants to increase the M user base. Cheers, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgcd Posted January 17, 2009 Share #50 Posted January 17, 2009 The S2 is first and foremost a technology platform allowing Leica's engineers to dream and push the envelope. From this platform all new developments for the R line and to a lesser technological level, the M line will be implemented. Thus, it doesn't appear to be a "waste of time" at least IMHO. The immediate beneficiary will be the R10 as the S line actually is an R system on steroids. As for a full frame M9, if it ever does happen that will be much further down the line - frankly "if" there is a real need for full frame with the "M". As for the price of the R10, my R8/DMR were close to $10,000 so anything less than that would be nice... Cheers, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted January 17, 2009 Share #51 Posted January 17, 2009 Hey Conrad, yeah--I'm a little frustrated waiting for the R10 is all Someone mentioned weddings a few posts back, and I just thought I'd give some people some insight into that particular business. I mentioned weddings. My point wasn't that wedding photographers are chafing at the bit to buy this camera but that it surely must be one of the target markets. I've shot plenty of weddings, on film, with a Bronica. From an IQ point of view my Leica R would have been perfectly good for the job but one was expected to use MF. What the Bronica (and most other MF systems) shares with the S2 is the leaf shutters which enable you to use fill in flash at any speed. That must surely be of interest. OK you can just play around with ISO instead. IF Leica get the pricing right then I am sure many wedding photographers (who aren't sponsored by Nikon or Canon) will be looking at the S2. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted January 17, 2009 Share #52 Posted January 17, 2009 I actually think the R10 is a waste of time to be honest. The competition is way to much and for what you may get Nikon and Canon will trounce it in the market with there Pro line. The R10 HAS to be very compelling to go against even a Sony A900 at 3k and leica will never approach those price points. The S2 actually makes sense but need it below the MF price line to succeed in the market. Folks want more out of 35mm but not going to go to much more than 8k for a body, they will go 12 to 15k for a S2 body but even than they have to be careful with there lens pricing and total system costs. If they want folks like me with a MF system now to switch than it has to be the right numbers and for folks to jump up from 35mm it has to show those numbers actually mean something and worth the extra money over the 35mm Pro systems today. They made this a middle format and needs to be priced as a middle format and they will have to realize that , to go out and buy a Hassy H system today with a vast amount of system parts is overall a better buy, Leica will only have so much stuff available out of the gate. So to get that Hassy fence sitter they have to get it below there pricing, same as the Phase systems. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted January 17, 2009 Share #53 Posted January 17, 2009 Mark, you know full well that the reason there isn't a full framed M is not because they couldn't fit one into an M body, it's because of image quality issues with the available sensors. Have those issues been resolved? If not would you be happy with a full frame sensor in the M9 that performed poorly? Indeed, and the point I was trying to make is that it is pointless introducing the M9 until they can improve both the sensor and the imaging pipeline. "Improved" to me means FF, low noise, higher speed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted January 17, 2009 Share #54 Posted January 17, 2009 Indeed, and the point I was trying to make is that it is pointless introducing the M9 until they can improve both the sensor and the imaging pipeline. "Improved" to me means FF, low noise, higher speed. So your advice, if you were a design consultant to Leica, would be to stick with the M8 until such time as they could fit a full frame sensor they were happy with? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted January 17, 2009 Share #55 Posted January 17, 2009 Don't see the point otherwise, Steve. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgcd Posted January 17, 2009 Share #56 Posted January 17, 2009 I actually think the R10 is a waste of time to be honest. The competition is way to much and for what you may get Nikon and Canon will trounce it in the market with there Pro line. The R10 HAS to be very compelling to go against even a Sony A900 at 3k and leica will never approach those price points. Well I disagree, of course, I would never buy a Sony for example but will definitely buy the R10 - I am more or less a captive audience. I'm sure there are others out there... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riccis Posted January 17, 2009 Share #57 Posted January 17, 2009 IF Leica get the pricing right then I am sure many wedding photographers (who aren't sponsored by Nikon or Canon) will be looking at the S2. I'll respectfully disagree with you on this point... Without even talking about pricing, there really is no need for a 37 mp file in wedding photography... IMHO, you really don't need anything over 12-16 mp... Cheers, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted January 17, 2009 Share #58 Posted January 17, 2009 I'm not a wedding shooter but I do know some of the best in the business, at least here in Seattle. Riccis and Jamie are right - there's little to no need for MF in the wedding biz right now. The trend is to more intimate and pj style shooting. It's the guys shooting B&W film that are actually making the big bucks. The days of the big rig MF and stroboframe flash are over and for good reason. They interrupt the ceremony and the pics are generally stale. The few weddings I have done I have a Rolleiflex TLR along with me and the reaction is generally ecstatic (and it didn't cost me $15K) but it's the Leica/Nikon shots that win the day and capture the true moments. People care about results not how much your camera costs. Another thing Leica isn't factoring in is the used market. If I need a backup for my Nikon/Canon/Leica M rig I can just turn to the used market. Same goes for lenses. I may want a primary body new with warranty la di da (though considering the lousy turn around time on Leica's service the warranty isn't such a great sales factor) but for a backup not such a big deal if I can get it mint for half almost half the price. The S2 is dead in the water imo. Most MFD shooters I know are pretty well grandfathered in with Leaf or Phase, and get taken care of as such. Plus plenty of Mamiya and Hass lenses on the used market. It would be a big leap for them to switch systems lock and barrel, never mind the state of the economy. I think Leica should have spent the r&d coming up with a line of CL/CM like fixed lens and/or short zoom digital p&s at a reasonable price that aren't just rebadged Panasonics. Stay true to the roots of what makes them special. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted January 17, 2009 Share #59 Posted January 17, 2009 Charles, Indeed tastes have changed and the more PJ kind of approach is in favour. But I was asked fairly recently about covering a wedding and one of the requests was 'do you do those photos with the faces in a brandy glass?' Riccis and Jamie know their business of course, and yes top end DSLRs are more than adequate for the job, but then so was 35mm film, but I couldn't get started in weddings until I'd bought a decent MF kit. I know that at that time it was quite usual for photographers in the US to use 35mm so I think there was/is also a difference in the market, but of course digital has changed everything. I can't agree more with you that Leica should have by now developed a high quality fixed lens 'large' sensor compact camera - I'd image they wouldn't be able to produce them fast enough. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted January 17, 2009 Share #60 Posted January 17, 2009 Well I disagree, of course, I would never buy a Sony for example but will definitely buy the R10 - I am more or less a captive audience. I'm sure there are others out there... I know Conrad your more the exception than the rule and others as well but percentage wise you sort of lose out if you know what I mean. We know Leica caters to a certain clientele no question but even so they are moving on too. They need to attract and get new buyers besides us old dogs. LOL Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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