some Leica's old claims about camera robustness

[atournas]

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Hi all,

 

Back in late 90's, I remember having come across a Leica brochure about its camera bodies and lenses. In that, Leica claimed that one could take more than 200,000 shots or change lenses more than 10,000 times without any observable deterioration in the camera's mechanical parts or functionality.

 

I can't find that brochure and I wonder if anyone else knows something about that claim.

 

Paul

[Guest DuquesneG]

If you strung together all of Leica's hyperbolic marketing claims and forgotten/broken promises throughout the years, it would reach from Solms to Midland and back. Considering that prior to the M8 there was no cumulative internal shot counter, and there still is no lens-dismount counter, I doubt that without undertaking a directed experiment, anyone has ever proved or disproved the 200K/10K claim. The few people who have actually done that much shooting with a Leica after the end of the 1960s probably had better things to do than count shots and lens mountings.

[ho_co]

Paul,

I don't know the brochure, but the claims have been borne out many times. They were accurate and recognized as such.

 

The lens mount was hardened and chromed, and wear was slow to show. In fact, to account for microscopic wear, tolerances on the location of the lens mount were +0.01 mm, -0.0 mm. That is, the mount could wear in but not wear out.

 

The M series shutter traveled in a loose channel in the body. There was virtually no wear on the mechanism because between fully wound and fired, the difference in spring tension was less than 25%.

 

Times have changed, and the accuracy of a cloth shutter no longer satisfies. That is, although the shutter was extremely rugged, it wasn't as repeatable as we demand today. Marked 1/1000 was generally closer to 1/750. It worked excellently in the days of slow and medium speed film, but as the market progressed it became clear that only an electronic shutter would do.

 

Both Lars Bergquist and Luigi Bertolotti are very familiar with Leica lore and may be able to help.

[redbaron]

DuquesneG, why don't you prosecute Leica? "Hyperbolic marketing claims and forgotten/broken promises" is false and misleading advertising.

[stuny]

Gordon -

 

Based on the number of photos you've posed here we can't even be certain you own a camera, and all we see of you are provocations. In the U.S. we have a semi-rude challenge that goes,"How about putting your money where your mouth is?" Got photos?

[Guest DuquesneG]

DuquesneG, why don't you prosecute Leica? "Hyperbolic marketing claims and forgotten/broken promises" is false and misleading advertising.

 

What a stupid callout. All advertising skates on the razor's edge of false and misleading, and staying just out of reach of prosecution is what they pay ad people big bucks for. Every time Leica announces a new model and says "[the previous model] will remain in the lineup" and then a few months later when inventory falls to some arbitrary low they discontinue it, it's an example of a forgotten/broken promise, but hardly something they can be prosecuted for. When Leica claims the M8 will be upgradable forever to current standard, and then they arbitrarily disallow the delayed shutter recock to facilitate sales of M8.2s, it's an example of hyperbolic marketing claims and forgotten/broken promises, but again, hardly something anybody would waste time and money hauling them into court for. What customers do is vote with their feet...when they've had their leg pulled enough times, they take their business elsewhere. Much more effective for the consumer, and devastating for the company, than some frivolous lawsuit.

[Guest DuquesneG]

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Gordon -

 

Based on the number of photos you've posed here we can't even be certain you own a camera, and all we see of you are provocations. In the U.S. we have a semi-rude challenge that goes,"How about putting your money where your mouth is?" Got photos?

 

As soon as you show me where the forum requires that members post photos (or own a camera for that matter) we can talk. Until then, we have another semi-rude challenge in the US that goes "How about kissing my a--."

[redbaron]

Paul, I seem to remember that claim, but I thought it was 100,000 shots. I can't recall anything about lens changing, sorry.

 

I personally have no doubt as to the voracity of this claim, based on the volume of work done and the simplicity of the Ms' shutter mechanism. Never any problems here!

 

Gordon, I really don't understand your claims. You seem to despise Leica as a company and you seem to attract a lot of negative feedback from Leica users. Why don't you just take your business elsewhere, as you suggest?

[antistatic]

"How about kissing my a--."

 

Charming.

 

I would have thought that there would have been something implicit in the title "Leica User Forum" (my italics) but I am happy to be proved wrong. Maybe it is just more of Leica's deceptive advertising.

[stunsworth]

"How about kissing my a--."

 

Couldn't we wave it goodbye instead? Much healthier.

[biglouis]

On a related point, I do remember when punting for a Leica a couple of years back that the salesman claimed that Leica aims to build a camera which "last a 100 years". I've always been fascinated by that claim - is it a standard Leica claim or is it an urban myth?

 

LouisB

[andybarton]

Leicas from the 20s and 30s are still serviceable, so I see no reason to doubt this claim. Especially for "traditional" models, which don't rely on electronics.

[nhabedi]

Back in late 90's, I remember having come across a Leica brochure about its camera bodies and lenses. In that, Leica claimed that one could take more than 200,000 shots or change lenses more than 10,000 times without any observable deterioration in the camera's mechanical parts or functionality.

 

I can't find that brochure and I wonder if anyone else knows something about that claim.

 

You'll just have to look around and see the huge amount of M3s, M4s, M6s that are still around and still in (sometimes heavy) use today. Without having any hard numbers, I'd bet that no other camera maker can claim such a good durability of their bodies on average. (Besides, I've seen similar claims about the supported number of shutter releases for analog Nikons as well.)

 

As others said, this has changed with the advent of electronic shutters, not to mention digital technology. My M4-P still works flawlessly although it's almost thirty years old now. I simply wouldn't expect that from my M8.2. (But I wouldn't expect that from a Japanese digital SLR either.)

 

What I would expect from Leica is that they would be willing and able to repair my M8.2 if it fails in a few years instead of telling me I should buy a new one. A claim I do remember which they had here in Germany some years ago was "Luxus ist, wenn man es reparieren kann" which translates to something like "Luxury means that it can be repaired." I always liked that claim and I find a camera that can be serviced for a long period more important than a camera which is supposed to not fail for a long period (as there's always a chance that something goes wrong or breaks).

 

If there's one thing where Leica still differs significantly from other camera makers I'd say it's there commitment to cameras that simply last. Of course, they like to sell cameras like everybody else, but they do expect people to keep and use these cameras for a loooong time. (Which is one of the reaons they've been in financial trouble for quite some time. Building technical devices which last simply isn't en vogue anymore.)

[nhabedi]

On a related point, I do remember when punting for a Leica a couple of years back that the salesman claimed that Leica aims to build a camera which "last a 100 years". I've always been fascinated by that claim - is it a standard Leica claim or is it an urban myth?

 

"Few things last a lifetime. A Leica M lasts longer."

 

As I said in my other reply I wouldn't take this as "This camera can be used for 100 years without problems" but as "We expect that you want to keep this camera as long as possible and we'll do our best to service it as long as we're there." So far, they've kept this promise.

 

I can't find it right now, but I've seen this cartoon somewhere where someone is going to the information desk of a store and asks where the service department for his camera is. The shop clerk asks him how old the camera is, and when he says "three years", he points to the garbage bin. That's not how Leica works...

[earleygallery]

My lllf and M2 both work perfectly. I had the M2 serviced when I bought it but the lllf hasn't been touched in over 20yrs.

 

Most Leica's should be serviceable for as long as it is viable to service/repair them. Certainly I'd expect a new MP would last for 100 years. I wouldn't expect that of an electronic or digital camera - the digitals will become outdated technology and the electronics won't be available and too costly to fabricate for one off repairs.

[ho_co]

A claim I do remember which they had here in Germany some years ago was "Luxus ist, wenn man es reparieren kann...." I always liked that claim and I find a camera that can be serviced for a long period more important than a camera which is supposed to not fail for a long period....

I hadn't heard that slogan, but it's excellent and it does set Leica apart.

 

Much better than the "limited lifetime guarantee" which lasts for the lifetime of the product and runs out the moment the product fails!

 

Maybe we would say, "No camera is more serviceable than Leica"? Even the digital M8 can be upgraded within reason.

 

But doesn't it follow then that since today's electronics won't likely be as serviceable in 50 years as mechanical parts, Leica like everyone else is being forced into the path of replaceable/discardable cameras?

[treeplanter]

Back in late 90's, I remember having come across a Leica brochure about its camera bodies and lenses. In that, Leica claimed that one could take more than 200,000 shots or change lenses more than 10,000 times without any observable deterioration in the camera's mechanical parts or functionality.

 

I just stumbled across a 1992 Leica M6 brochure that states "Even after 100,000 exposures the shutter shows no signs of wear." Maybe this is what you were referring to.

 

Jim B.

[JBA]

Any claims of robustness clearly only apply to mechanical cameras. My C-Lux 2 worked for a year before dying. It's being repaired under warranty at the moment, but in the long run it's probably destined to become an expensive paperweight.

[k_g_wolf ✝]

A few years ago I read a story about a photographer who worked on an oceanliner for many, many years with a companies M3.

 

They >>counted<< 350,000 or so exposures with one M3- camera which had never left the ship to be serviced. LEITZ didn´t use such figures in advertising ASFIK, but to claim 100,000 seems to be absolutely safe.

 

This number I also remember from an older M6 ad as reported in treeplanter´s post above.

 

 

 

Best

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[garyp]

The MD models which were used in German [maybe others as well] post offices have been said to go for many, many thousands of exposures. I've seen an article about it 'somewhere', will try to find.