Guest guy_mancuso Posted December 11, 2008 Share #81 Posted December 11, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) I don't know that the S2 would be satisfactory with the extreme movements given by a view camera, with those microlenses. It might be that it will be designed to work well with the S-system tilt-shift lens, but not beyond. I don't know how large the bayonet is either, and if it will allow the large shift movements. Exactly nothing will beat a 4x5 for movements and working with smaller formats is much more a challenge in this area BUT and this is a big but even the focal length of the canon 90mm T/S you can still get nice results staying under some of the diffraction limits in digital and still get some T/S in there , Ever try shooting a black box with a straight 90mm well the back end will be out of focus at F16, I shoot many of avionics boxes to know but a 90mm T/S can at least get me home with front and back in. So given have it or not. I will take it any day with those limitations than not have anything at all. Honestly with micro lenses and the leica 24mm T/S lens , than there going to need a miracle to pull that off without color shift. Longer lenses you can get away with it to some degree but wide angles. I say show me the money in cash first. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted December 11, 2008 Posted December 11, 2008 Hi Guest guy_mancuso, Take a look here s2 and d3. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
AlanG Posted December 11, 2008 Share #82 Posted December 11, 2008 Honestly with micro lenses and the leica 24mm T/S lens , than there going to need a miracle to pull that off without color shift. Longer lenses you can get away with it to some degree but wide angles. I say show me the money in cash first. A little correction. The Leica TS lens for the S2 is 30mm. Since it is a retrofocus design, the angle of the projected light is not very great, even when it is shifted. I don't see how this is much different than using a 24 TS on a 24x36 sensor. Well it may be a challenge... but if they can't get it to perform without a color shift, what is the point? Since the S2 has a focal plane shutter, it should be pretty simple to mount various longer tilt shift lenses to it. A macro lens and tilt shift bellows would be easy too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted December 11, 2008 Share #83 Posted December 11, 2008 There were at least 2 very long threads about severe color shift when using a digital back with microlenses on a view camera on Rob Galbraith's medium format digital forum (now sold to a wedding guy). It is caused by light striking the microlenses at an acute angle when large movement is made. It was very well documented ... if I remember correctly, anything wider than 45mm on a P21+ or 30+ will cause the problem, that focal length is about 35mm on a 35mm system, divide by 1.25x it comes almost 30mm (29.17mm to be exact) on the S2, I guess that's why Leica chose that focal length for the shift lens. Anything wider than that on the S2 ... you are out of luck. Alpa chooses Leaf backs using the DALSA sensor for all samples on their web site. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted December 11, 2008 Share #84 Posted December 11, 2008 A little correction. The Leica TS lens for the S2 is 30mm. Since it is a retrofocus design, the angle of the projected light is not very great, even when it is shifted. I don't see how this is much different than using a 24 TS on a 24x36 sensor. Well it may be a challenge... but if they can't get it to perform without a color shift, what is the point? Since the S2 has a focal plane shutter, it should be pretty simple to mount various longer tilt shift lenses to it. A macro lens and tilt shift bellows would be easy too. CMOS and AA filter is mostly reason you can on a Canon but I could be wrong here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted December 11, 2008 Share #85 Posted December 11, 2008 A little correction. The Leica TS lens for the S2 is 30mm. Since it is a retrofocus design, the angle of the projected light is not very great, even when it is shifted. I don't see how this is much different than using a 24 TS on a 24x36 sensor. ... I am not sure. The covered image circle has to be significantly greater than the size of the sensor to get any kind of shift in there, and with the size of the bayonet, that would mean that the outer reaches would come in rather slanted... I am sure that Leica will be able to pull it off, but it might mean that there is some communication between lens and body about the current setup of the lens, so that the firmware can do some colour correction. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted December 11, 2008 Share #86 Posted December 11, 2008 There is one thing in here that maybe the saving grace and i would ASSUME leica may have made these lenses for the future with a very large image circle so they can increase the size of the sensor down the road if they go with something bigger. I would think also with the 30mm you may only get a max of 10 degrees for T/S that seems to be with a lot of lenses the max you can go. Obviously we will have to wait and see, sorry I misquoted that focal length at 24 instead of 30mm, thanks Alan for the correction. I do not know all the in's and out's on color shift on why. I do know it mostly is a issue with Kodak Micro lens backs and Dalsa does not use micro lenses in there backs. Now the other Kodak sensors like the H39 , P45 and P25 do not have micro lenses so these are the ones recommended for tech camera's. Main reason i went with the P25 was to avoid this issue if and when i use a tech camera. But still Leica does have to figure this out with there 30mm so the T/S could be small degree's in movement. Going to be interesting to see how they can get around the color shift issue. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedudeistoocool Posted December 11, 2008 Share #87 Posted December 11, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) I'm a little late to the party and things have gone a bit iff topic but I just wanted to put this out there because it is brilliantly hilarious even Hitler is unhappy with the cost of the D3x Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted December 11, 2008 Share #88 Posted December 11, 2008 It wasn't funny at all until Ken Rockwell was mentioned about. LOL The original German movie "Der Untergang" is quite good ... most of Hollywood WWII feature titles really stink. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomasis7 Posted December 14, 2008 Share #89 Posted December 14, 2008 even Hitler is unhappy with the cost of the D3x that was prettyy funny Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentleman Villain Posted December 14, 2008 Share #90 Posted December 14, 2008 See? maybe Hitler wasn't such a bad guy after all... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackal Posted December 20, 2008 Share #91 Posted December 20, 2008 While I'm sure the D3x will be a huge hit, looking at the official samples posted, I just don't see the information level of a 24MP image. The 22MP MFD systems I've used have much more per-pixel sharpness and better mico-contrast. David totally agree I thought the D3x samples were awful when you look at 100% they look really blurred and out of focus, no doubt due to the glass limitations and the AA filter. I noticed noise on the gradients of the car pictures as well. when you looj at say a good hasselblad file at 100% it just looks so real with no noise in the gradients at all Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackal Posted December 20, 2008 Share #92 Posted December 20, 2008 weather prediction and stock development has become quite good recently due to math modeling. and you know pretty much what to expect from the d3 and from the s2. check the nikon and kodak (S2 sensor) track record. also some people have seen files.peter 'maths' Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overgaard Posted December 20, 2008 Share #93 Posted December 20, 2008 I was interested in the D3 as I shot Nikon back when the F3 HP was the camera. But when I handled their glass a few weeks ago and the Nikon rep started talking about nano-coated glass and that they would come up with "full-frame" glass again I kind of lost interest again. Full-frame glass. Kind of an odd concept. Leica is so pure and natural. No nano-stuff or artificial software-fixing of lens capture. Photography is about light, not about technology. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
markowich Posted December 20, 2008 Author Share #94 Posted December 20, 2008 'maths' one of my biggest problems at cambridge university is the 's' in maths which i am not used due due to my scientific US upbringing... ----))) peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
markowich Posted December 20, 2008 Author Share #95 Posted December 20, 2008 totally agree I thought the D3x samples were awful when you look at 100% they look really blurred and out of focus, no doubt due to the glass limitations and the AA filter. I noticed noise on the gradients of the car pictures as well. when you looj at say a good hasselblad file at 100% it just looks so real with no noise in the gradients at all i got my D3x a few days ago and i cannot verify what you are talking about. the raws have a medium format flavor. surely, my P45 + alpa + schneider/rodensock lenses still beats it at base iso, but 400 iso is already in favour of nikon. of course, i understand that many people are just interested a base iso IQ, but D3x rocks even there. the AA filter seems very different from previous nikon/canon generations, as i said, we are reaching medium format quality.this is going to be hard to beat as a package, 37mpx alone is not going to cut it. i hope that leica has some other assets in place....lenses? peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted December 21, 2008 Share #96 Posted December 21, 2008 Leica is so pure and natural. No nano-stuff or artificial software-fixing of lens capture. Photography is about light, not about technology. ?????? software fixing. I think the M8 does this more than any other camera. Technology has been a major part of photography as it transitioned over these past 159 years. Like it or not. Even for Leica. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted December 21, 2008 Share #97 Posted December 21, 2008 There is a lot going on to the M8 raws before you actually get a chance to process them. I agree with Alan more than many others Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
georg Posted December 21, 2008 Share #98 Posted December 21, 2008 What is the M8 doing to RAW-files? Coded-lenses can use vignetting-correction and cyan-corner-correction - that's it. While CMOS-based cameras use many software-tricks even for RAW the M8 delivers just (non-linear) digitized sensor-data - like normal MF-backs. Well, the "nano-coating" has very little to do with these things, it's just a cool sounding marketing description for a certain coating (many Leica-coating-aspects could be described with "nano-technology") but what I've seen from the D3X looks very much like ordinary 35mm-CMOS propably caused by very tricky software algorithms, AA-filter, lenses and other stuff. . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted December 21, 2008 Share #99 Posted December 21, 2008 ?????? software fixing. I think the M8 does this more than any other camera. I was surprised to see you as the author of this statement, Alan. Correcting a corner cast (colour values) is pretty light-duty, compared to Hasselblad's 28mm corrections (moving pixels around), for example, or the noise reduction going on in Canons at higher ISOs, leading to a very processed, smeary, low-noise look. Did you mean it in some sort of limited way? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted December 22, 2008 Share #100 Posted December 22, 2008 37mpx alone is not going to cut it. i hope that leica has some other assets in place....lenses? Have you seen the MTF curves for the S lenses? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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