s2 and d3

[markowich]

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Have been able to compare them with the S2 files?

Do you really think you can judge a camera by looking at some pre-release files?

Did you notice that your price estimation was wrong?

 

And finally, because you seem unable to add 2 and 2, why should we trust your evaluations?

 

The day Sean Reid post a review of the D3x, I'll trust him. Not somebody who believes that with recent math modelling, one can predict stock prices

 

you are free to trust whomever you want, but please, stop commenting on mathematics before it gets ridiculous. just to enlighten you a bit on this off topic, of course you cannot predict individual stock prices but portfolio expansions. just put finance math into google and black-scholes.

peter

[adan]

"About the same price as the new Noctilux then..." True - or TWO M8's at the new rebated price.

 

Will an S or and R body likely cost more than the D3x? - sure. But the S2 is in a different universe, and a hypothetical digital R is probably in a different decade (post 2010) so who cares?

 

I'm looking forward to trying out the D3x, 5DII, and A-900 once the pre-orders have been filled and there are a few of them on dealers shelves.

 

I don't think any of them are quite what I want yet - I'm holding out for a D800 that is a) smaller than the D3x and will take legacy manual lenses without adapters, unlike the Canon or Sony.

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[markowich]

I've handled a preproduction S2 extensively and don't find the ergonomics to be poor. Regarding the noise performance...wouldn't you perhaps want to actually see the files before making any evaluation of that?

 

In fact, wouldn't it make sense to work with an actual S2 (when it comes out) before making any decisions about it? It seems the cart is being put before the horse here.

 

Cheers,

 

hi sean,

how much better can the S2 sensor be in high iso noise (i mean 320 and up) than the P45+ or the P65 sensor? one stop? no chance it will be any better than that.

mark my words, peter

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Peter the S2 is more in line with the P30 plus than any of the other backs since it is 6.8 microns and with micro lenses which the P65 and P45 plus do not have micro lenses and also the crop factor of the P30 is just slightly bigger than the S2 will be. Also the P30 plus back is rated at 1600 which i have tested myself and is very good in this range. The P65 I am leaving today to go test it for 3 days along with the P25 Plus (mine) and P45 plus ( Jacks). I can almost guarantee you we will see at least ISO 1600 in the S2 and hopefully more and this area Leica and Phase will mostly work together with C1 software to gain the high ISO's. Also the bottom line on Phase backs and there high ISO ratings is only due to the algorithms that are built into the backs firmware and C1. C1 is by far the best raw processing software for the Phase files. This is another area in which Leica will gain a lot with C1 and there files. All remains to be seen if they can push the S2 beyond 1600, for me i could care less as long as 1600 is clean after that buy a Nikon or Canon in my opinion.

 

Just to also get the facts straight on what these backs are rated

 

P25 Plus is ISO 800 22mpx 9 micron

P30 plus is rated at ISO 1600 31mpx 6.8 micron ( Micro Lenses)

P45 Plus is rated at 800 39 mpx 6.8 micron

P65 Plus is rated at ? 60mpx 6 micron I believe and will confirm . I will let you know that after I test it today. This is a brand new back at 60 mpx that is still in pre -production. Leaving in a few hours for the airport to give this back a workout against the P25 and P45 Plus

 

S2 is 37mpx with a 6 micron sensor ( Micro Lenses)

[sean_reid]

hi sean,

how much better can the S2 sensor be in high iso noise (i mean 320 and up) than the P45+ or the P65 sensor? one stop? no chance it will be any better than that.

mark my words, peter

 

Hi Peter,

 

I can't say that you'll be wrong or right on this aspect. But my key rule of operating is to pass no judgement on equipment I haven't tested. Until we actually see S2 results, we can't really say what they'll look like. But I understand your educated guess and we'll just have to see how it shakes out.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[markowich]

Hi Peter,

 

I can't say that you'll be wrong or right on this aspect. But my key rule of operating is to pass no judgement on equipment I haven't tested. Until we actually see S2 results, we can't really say what they'll look like. But I understand your educated guess and we'll just have to see how it shakes out.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

 

hi sean,

in principle i am with you. if the S2 turns out better than i suspect (and i do understand 'better' is an issue of personal preferences) i shall be among the first to buy it (and look forward to your review).

meanwhile i just hope that mr kauffmann does not start to support the austrian (or islandic?) dairy industry instead of leica. risky times,

peter

[peterv]

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how much better can the S2 sensor be in high iso noise (i mean 320 and up) than the P45+ or the P65 sensor? one stop? no chance it will be any better than that.

mark my words, peter

 

Hi Peter,

 

this makes me curious to see a high ISO example of the sensors you mention. Perhaps you, or someone else, can post a link to a few examples?

 

(I don't think those photos are allowed to be posted here in the Leica Forum, but just a link is permissible, I hope)

 

Thanks,

 

Peter

[pascal_meheut]

just to enlighten you a bit on this off topic, of course you cannot predict individual stock prices but portfolio expansions. just put finance math into google and black-scholes.

peter

 

I'm quite impressed. You managed to talk with great confidence of 2 subjects you clearly know nothing about: cameras quality as well as finance.

BTW, black-scholes is just a method to price some options. It does nothing else.

 

But thanks for the laughs. Please continue as I'm trying to use the whole set of smileys in my answer, but just one at a time. I have no doubt you'll be up to the task of saying a lot of other stupid things though

[mjh]

you should be careful with words like 'silly'. medium format is not synonymous with quality (and again, i am very optimistic that the S2 will produce quality files at base iso).

i have seen files from almost all currently produced medium format backs and from all FF DSLRs and feel in a good position for understanding their virtues. i hope this holds for you too.

That’s my job.

 

There is only so much you can cram onto a 36 x 24 mm sensor, and any increase in megapixels comes at the expense of signal-to-noise ratio, dynamic range, and colour fidelity. The gap between digital 35 mm and digital MF cameras has been shifting from about 20 MP once to about 30 MP now, but it shows no sign of ever closing. Medium format is not a guarantee for a certain level of image quality, it is more of a prerequisite. I don’t deny that DSLRs like the EOS-1Ds Mark III and soon the D3X are fine cameras in their own right, and certainly preferable to MF DSLRs for some kind of tasks. But they do not and will not deliver the image qualitity a digital MF DSLR can.

[sdai]

Joking aside, I think Michael has a valid point ... my negative view on this camera is partly because I'm not happy with what Leica is doing especially on the R front.

 

Recently, I have actually seen a couple of test files of an identical setup shot with a H3D2-50 (whose sensor is cut off from the same wafer with the S2's sensor) and a A900 side by side. Between the Hasselblad and the Sony, there is NO contest ... it's a bloodbath.

 

But, while many folks claim that the sensor area of a S2 is 56% larger than the A900 or a D3x tirelessly, let's not forget it's also 28% smaller than a H3D2-50 or 60% smaller than the H3D2-65.

 

The S2 should have an advantage over 35mm FF but how big the margin is and whether it is worth the price, we don't know ... Will the S2 stack up against real medium format? you bet with your money.

[markowich]

Peter the S2 is more in line with the P30 plus than any of the other backs since it is 6.8 microns and with micro lenses which the P65 and P45 plus do not have micro lenses and also the crop factor of the P30 is just slightly bigger than the S2 will be. Also the P30 plus back is rated at 1600 which i have tested myself and is very good in this range. The P65 I am leaving today to go test it for 3 days along with the P25 Plus (mine) and P45 plus ( Jacks). I can almost guarantee you we will see at least ISO 1600 in the S2 and hopefully more and this area Leica and Phase will mostly work together with C1 software to gain the high ISO's. Also the bottom line on Phase backs and there high ISO ratings is only due to the algorithms that are built into the backs firmware and C1. C1 is by far the best raw processing software for the Phase files. This is another area in which Leica will gain a lot with C1 and there files. All remains to be seen if they can push the S2 beyond 1600, for me i could care less as long as 1600 is clean after that buy a Nikon or Canon in my opinion.

 

Just to also get the facts straight on what these backs are rated

 

P25 Plus is ISO 800 22mpx 9 micron

P30 plus is rated at ISO 1600 31mpx 6.8 micron ( Micro Lenses)

P45 Plus is rated at 800 39 mpx 6.8 micron

P65 Plus is rated at ? 60mpx 6 micron I believe and will confirm . I will let you know that after I test it today. This is a brand new back at 60 mpx that is still in pre -production. Leaving in a few hours for the airport to give this back a workout against the P25 and P45 Plus

 

S2 is 37mpx with a 6 micron sensor ( Micro Lenses)

 

hi guy,

whenever i use my P45 or A75 beyond base iso (which is 50 for the A75) i wish i had taken my D3 along instead. seems that all the DB advantage evaporates and i just carried excess baggage, bulk and ergonomic inconvenience. my friends in semiconductor industry certainly confirm the fact that the smaller the pixel pitch the more (dark current and other) noise you get UNLESS you are willing to accept a serious increase in sensor production costs (as yield decreases exponentially). now the DB manufacturers charge 35 000.- USD and more to give us sensors which behave worse than 2500.- USD canikons one stop above base iso, only at double the count of mpx? certainly the tonality at base iso is wonderful (dynamic range does not -repeat not- beat D3/700), but you up the iso a bit and ALL is lost. ok, there is no antialiasing filter in DB which saves you from PP sharpening. but for me this only means that files look better on FIRST inspection.

and all this on top of ergonomic disaster zones like hassy/mamiya/leaf, seeming godzilla dinosaurs compared to canikon (leica fanboys certainly are more flexible in this respect). well, leica fanboys are willing to digest a lot (reminds me of westham united fans who are used to see their team's defeat getting soaked under heavy rain in the stadium) but when you think about it rationally what can you expect from the S2? well, i am sure it will be (should it ever come to the market) a highly competitive base iso (semi)medium format camera. not more and not less.

all in all, i see the medium format business in a black hole (and i am sayiny this while i have a P65 and an A10 on order...might change my mind though..).

peter

[markowich]

That’s my job.

 

good to hear (read) that.

all the best, peter

[markowich]

I'm quite impressed. You managed to talk with great confidence of 2 subjects you clearly know nothing about: cameras quality as well as finance.

BTW, black-scholes is just a method to price some options. It does nothing else.

 

But thanks for the laughs. Please continue as I'm trying to use the whole set of smileys in my answer, but just one at a time. I have no doubt you'll be up to the task of saying a lot of other stupid things though

 

thanks for updating me on black-scholes.

peter

[markowich]

Hi Peter,

 

this makes me curious to see a high ISO example of the sensors you mention. Perhaps you, or someone else, can post a link to a few examples?

 

(I don't think those photos are allowed to be posted here in the Leica Forum, but just a link is permissible, I hope)

 

Thanks,

 

Peter

 

hi peter,

i cannot post P65 files, but as soon as i have another chance to shoot P45 at higher iso i shall email you. but maybe guy has something right now?

peter

[mooky]

Joking aside, I think Michael has a valid point ... my negative view on this camera is partly because I'm not happy with what Leica is doing especially on the R front.

 

Recently, I have actually seen a couple of test files of an identical setup shot with a H3D2-50 (whose sensor is cut off from the same wafer with the S2's sensor) and a A900 side by side. Between the Hasselblad and the Sony, there is NO contest ... it's a bloodbath.

 

But, while many folks claim that the sensor area of a S2 is 56% larger than the A900 or a D3x tirelessly, let's not forget it's also 28% smaller than a H3D2-50 or 60% smaller than the H3D2-65.

 

The S2 should have an advantage over 35mm FF but how big the margin is and whether it is worth the price, we don't know ... Will the S2 stack up against real medium format? you bet with your money.

 

Just a little curious how you know for sure that the S2 sensor is 'cut' from the same wafer as the Hasselblad? That kind of information would have to come from someone with high access to the source would it not? Again, just a little curious is all.

[sdai]

Just a little curious how you know for sure that the S2 sensor is 'cut' from the same wafer as the Hasselblad? That kind of information would have to come from someone with high access to the source would it not? Again, just a little curious is all.

 

It's all inside Kodak's press release, you can't miss it if you're spending about the same amount of time on the web as I do:

 

KODAK CCD Image Sensors Power New Cameras for Professional Photography

 

Both the KAI-50100 and the KAF-37500 Image Sensors are based on the new KODAK TRUESENSE 6.0 micron Full Frame CCD Platform, the company's fourth generation of technology for professional photography.

 

It's worth to note that PhaseOne themselves skipped the Kodak sensor and went for DALSA's 6 micron technology for the P65+, Hasselblad also switched to DALSA with the pre-announcement of H3DII-65.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

If you want to see the P65 + from Phase at 60.5 mpx back this thing is just scary.

 

Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak - The GetDPI Workshop Forums

[sdai]

If you want to see the P65 + from Phase at 60.5 mpx back this thing is just scary.

 

They look absolutely fabulous, Guy ... it's really just too bad for what I do such an expenditure can't be justified.

 

Mamiya lenses are dirt cheap these days, I bought a 35/3.5 in mint condition off ebay for merely 600 bucks ... now I've had almost everything - well, forget about the latest "Sekor D" lenses.

 

I do hope people think that they're really bad when compared to "Zeiss", "Leica" etc so their prices will take a plunge ... perhaps when Phase starts dumping the P65+ refurbs then I'll get one.

[mooky]

sdai,,,,,Thanks for the info.

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[adan]

Michael Reichmann at Luminous-landscape just announced that after hearing the price of the D3x, he cancelled his long-standing order for one - something that has implications for BOTH Nikon and the Leica S2.

 

His basic argument was that with two sub-$3000 full-frame 20+ Mpixel DSLR cameras now available (5Dii and A-900) and the price of the 1Dsiii dropping fast (now in the mid $6K range), it is simply - arrogant - for Nikon to walk into the market at $7,995. Canon got away with those price levels for the 1Dsi/ii because there was no direct competition, but those days are past.

 

At least Leica has 6-7 months to think things over before setting the price on the S2, which is no doubt why they are not commiting to anything yet. But it will be a) the overall economy, and products/prices from Hassy and Mamiya/PhaseOne that will drive the S2 price - not the D3x.