s2 and d3

[ddp]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

His basic argument was that with two sub-$3000 full-frame 20+ Mpixel DSLR cameras now available (5Dii and A-900) and the price of the 1Dsiii dropping fast (now in the mid $6K range), it is simply - arrogant - for Nikon to walk into the market at $7,995. Canon got away with those price levels for the 1Dsi/ii because there was no direct competition, but those days are past.

 

 

Ah....but the D3X is a slightly different animal than the 5DII or the A900. Those are not the targets for Nikon at this level - it's Canon's big boy they are after and the pros that use it. Arrogant? No....if the market doesn't bear it, you will see a price drop. Keep in mind that the 5DII and the A900 are less robust in build quality & shutter actuations.

[mooky]

I've said this in the past before so please excuse the point once more - It doesn't seem too far of a stretch before technology catches up with the market for FF sensor cameras at low price points. Eventually, it is possible that the R10, D3x, and 1Ds? will have to offer some feature that the pros or serious shooters want (need) that sets those models far apart from the others.

 

Right now, I don't know what that would be. Leica has made a bold move with the S2 and it could be that it will be more of a technological 'image' camera for them and not a big seller (which I'm guessing they know) at least for the best, 'profit per unit model'. I bet the old 'Crystal Ball' is getting a lot of use right now as are the bean counters, marketers, etc. as the technology becomes common-place and they all try to stay ahead of the curve.

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[adan]

ddp: True - but the 1Ds price is down to $6,650, so Nikon has to justify a 20% price differential. Which perhaps they can do (I've heard rumors about the AA filter on the Nikon being far less intrusive than Canon/Sony's).

 

I'd expect there may even be a slight price war between Nikon and Canon on the top end by spring, with both top-end pro cameras dropping to about $6,000. Nikon has already had to cut the prices of regular D3 and D700s.

 

We are in a serious era of price deflation that I'm not sure everyone really realizes is out there yet.

 

Just since my previous post above it has been announced that the newspaper I work for is for sale, and in reality is likely to close rather than find a buyer (who would have invested in a buggy factory in 1920?). And that's a paper whose photo staff has won 4 Pulitzers since 1999 and has a circulation over 220,000 (but is losing money at the rate of $15 million this year and likely $25 million next year if they stayed in business).

 

The media world post-2008 is not going to look much like the world of 2005 - and that includes 35mm-based cameras over $6000.

[dfarkas]

...I'd expect there may even be a slight price war between Nikon and Canon on the top end by spring, with both top-end pro cameras dropping to about $6,000. Nikon has already had to cut the prices of regular D3 and D700s...

 

Actually, this is not true. Nikon hasn't changed the cost to dealers since the introduction of both of these cameras. Many dealers are now selling under their wholesale cost to move inventory, and this hurts everyone in the supply chain. Price deflation is a nasty thing, but it isn't coming from the camera manufacturers.

 

The smae is true in Canon land, $6500 is considerably under dealer cost for a 1DsIII. Many consumers expect that photo dealers are selling cameras at iPod-like margins and this is just not true.

 

David

[adan]

Thanks for the clarification, David.

 

Sounds like the old retailers' joke come to life, "I lose $50 on every sale, but I make it up on volume."

 

It does seem like eventually the dealers will get tired of ordering cameras that will cost them money to sell - and what will that do to Nikon's order book once the first wave of pre-sold orders tapers off and the D3x becomes an inventory item?

[AlanG]

Thanks for the clarification, David.

 

Sounds like the old retailers' joke come to life, "I lose $50 on every sale, but I make it up on volume."

 

It does seem like eventually the dealers will get tired of ordering cameras that will cost them money to sell - and what will that do to Nikon's order book once the first wave of pre-sold orders tapers off and the D3x becomes an inventory item?

 

A long time ago my cousin owned a camera store in Washington DC. I worked there on breaks from school. She considered that everything to do with retail selling of cameras was a loss, but kept it looking like a real camera store. (Commercial and government sales were another matter.) The retail profit was generated by film and processing sales. And accessories often had big markups. The store had a huge number of customers come in for slide and print processing. The store was in a great location on Pennsylvania Avenue, a block from the White House, next door to a large cafeteria. Often, a few busloads of kids would be dropped off for lunch and they'd pour into the store buying film and flashcubes.

 

I also remember that while there were "net" dealer prices, there often were specials that made the actual net price a bit lower. Such as order 18 Nikkormats and get 18 free cases, additional co-op ad money, free financing, etc. Sometimes we had to sell a case, a filter and some film to make any money from a camera sale.

[dhsimmonds]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Ah....but the D3X is a slightly different animal than the 5DII or the A900. Those are not the targets for Nikon at this level - it's Canon's big boy they are after and the pros that use it.

 

The technical gap between m/f and a "full-frame" dslr is narrowing all the time if print sizes below A2 is the requirement. It is not just pixel count either ie the dynamic range of m/f is arounf 12 stops, even 12.5 for the bigger 65 mpx digital backs. The new Sony Alpha 900 is 11stops and some boffin testers have even recorded 11.5 stops of dynamic range. It will be interesting to see what the Nikon D3x produces with essentially the same Sony sensor. The A900 also has the advantage over Nikon as it has a fast growing range of excellent Zeiss autofocus lenses designed for full frame high Mpx digital which with anti-shake within the Sony body makes for very practical high quality image making. It is also less than 40% of the Nikon D3x price as a bonus!

 

However the bottom line as always is with the image and I doubt if full frame dslr's will ever compete with the "look" of what m/f can produce.

[paulmoore]

well, the justification might be that it shares the poor ergonomics and noise behaviour with the other medium format offerings. and i know what i am saying, i have H2 + P45 + A75 combos. so far i have accepted their obvious shortcomings in the handling department as a trade off for their superior quality at base iso (and i repeat, i am convinced the S2 will show the same great base iso file quality, maybe better). now i am rethinking and i am sure that others will do too..

so, in a nutshell, i shall use the d3x unless the highest quality is needed. then there is no alternative to a digital view camera (alpa in my case).

cheers, peter

 

so as not to confuse..

Alpa is not a true view camera..it is a varition of a field camera..limited movements..only view cameras have full front and back movements.

 

I too am rethinking my needs and how to work in the S2..

I would like to see some leica expansion of the S2 to include an adapter to my rollei xact/2 or their own extended bellows with front movements for those that need only the front movements..

[Gentleman Villain]

alpa is really intriguing...I've very interested in that camera system

 

The thing that concerns me about Alpa is that the samples I'm seeing from exclusive lenses and adapted lenses look very high contrast to my eyes. That's not necessarily a bad thing because some photographers like the contrast. Personally, high contrast doesn't work well for me when photographing portraits. I got interested in Leica because of the smoother and more balanced contrast of the lenses which should work well for making pleasing skintones. Alpa worries me about the contrast of the lenses when photographing people. Also, the extreme shift movements are really targeted towards architectural/landscape photographers and I don't know how useful those alpa movements will be in a general studio environment. Alpa could be kinda limiting in the studio when compared to a traditional view camera.

 

But Alpa is so cool.....it just has cool factor...Alpa is one seriously beautiful camera system. If I were an architectural/landscape shooter with enough cashflow an Alpa would be mine in a heartbeat

[Guest guy_mancuso]

I had a Alpa TC and it certainly is a nice setup , very well engineered for sure. But also has some limitations and one is focusing, it is guess work unless you put a ground glass on do your focusing than replace it with your back. Or just guess in which that is what I did. I had a 47mm Schnieder XL on it. Also like Leica for wides you need a external finder for all lenses , so some limits there as well but if shooting landscape it was great. Street shooting which i did was fun but certainly a challenge. yes it is a very small setup which i loved but i needed a Mamiya 28mm more so i sold it. I used my P25 plus on it and in Leica's S2 there is no way to use this since it is a integrated camera. So tech camera's are out of the realm of the S2. This is the one caveat some folks will not like.

[paulmoore]

I had a Alpa TC and it certainly is a nice setup , very well engineered for sure. But also has some limitations and one is focusing, it is guess work unless you put a ground glass on do your focusing than replace it with your back. Or just guess in which that is what I did. I had a 47mm Schnieder XL on it. Also like Leica for wides you need a external finder for all lenses , so some limits there as well but if shooting landscape it was great. Street shooting which i did was fun but certainly a challenge. yes it is a very small setup which i loved but i needed a Mamiya 28mm more so i sold it. I used my P25 plus on it and in Leica's S2 there is no way to use this since it is a integrated camera. So tech camera's are out of the realm of the S2. This is the one caveat some folks will not like.

 

well you could have a hybrid tech camera with the S2.. Rollei/schneider has ceased producing their 150mm apo symmar makro which needed about 67mm of bellows in front of the slr lens mount to focus on infinity.. so too could leica make a s2 bellows with similar lens mounted on a standard with movements.

maybe I am just jaded by 30 years of view camera work..but to me any high resolution camera that doesn't have some sort of option for movements is just another handheld snapper..well almost. I love the build quality of the alpa but they seem just too analog in a digital world..they do now have the option of using electonic rollei lenses. but you loose the small little package of alpa then.

[AlanG]

... maybe I am just jaded by 30 years of view camera work..but to me any high resolution camera that doesn't have some sort of option for movements is just another handheld snapper..well almost. I love the build quality of the alpa but they seem just too analog in a digital world..they do now have the option of using electonic rollei lenses. but you loose the small little package of alpa then.

 

The Linhof Techno camera is bigger than an Alpa but much more versatile. Plus it can use lenses that are mounted on standard flat boards rather than requiring lenses in special focusing mounts.

 

Linhof camera for digital outdoor photography

 

It just occurred to me that the S2 will be at a bit of a disadvantage to the Hy6 Rollei system - we all know that the lack of a removable back is one factor. But the Rollei lenses can be mounted onto various view cameras (such as the Techno) to allow for movements. There is a special adapter and remote control (surely expensive) that can control the electronic features of the lenses. So the back and lenses can be re-purposed for technical use. Add the 23mm Rodenstock and perhaps a 35mm and you'd be pretty set.

[lars_bergquist]

Leica has stated that a tilt/shift lens is being planned. That would answer this particular question.

 

The old man from the Age of the Mamiya 23

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Yes they are but would actually like to see the 120 macro a T/S for product work also.

[paulmoore]

Yes they are but would actually like to see the 120 macro a T/S for product work also.

 

whenever I say to some non-photo type that I am a photographer they usually assume some sort of photography involving people, portrait, weddings etc..that is how they relate to photography, on photo forums when I say I would like movements in a camera there is a similar assumtion - "well all you need is a wide angle because it is for architecture or landscape, right?" as guy pointed out a longer lens is needed.. and macro capable.

btw I have just listed my pre-techno linhof technika on ebay..and am having separation anxiety already..first the sinars went and now the linhof, the last camera of mine that holds sheet film..

I think mounting the s2 to the back of that techno thing would be cool but again you would need special lenses for the extra bellows so every shot wouldn't be ultra macro.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Agree Paul , pick up ANY magazine and see how many table top shots there are. Trust me you may lose count. Let's not even get into catalog work. Yes folks I DON"T SHOOT WEDDINGS. LOL

 

I do once in awhile but Paul is right everyone assumes this stuff and honestly it is far from it for many shooters. Nothing better than a longer T/S lens like a Canon 90mm T/S style

[AlanG]

Agree Paul , pick up ANY magazine and see how many table top shots there are. Trust me you may lose count. Let's not even get into catalog work. Yes folks I DON"T SHOOT WEDDINGS. LOL

 

I do once in awhile but Paul is right everyone assumes this stuff and honestly it is far from it for many shooters. Nothing better than a longer T/S lens like a Canon 90mm T/S style

 

Even the Linhof Techo is limited in degree of tilt and swing. Short lenses for MF on any view camera will often cause the camera to show mechanical limitations in how much the standards can be swung or tilted before they bang into each other.

 

As a long time view camera user (since 1970) I will add that the smaller format cameras and TS lenses do not have nearly the extremes of movement or the ability to minimize and control the plane of focus that one can get on a 4x5. For instance a 24mm TSE lens tilted all of the way and shot wide open still does not isolate the plane of focus. Whereas a 75mm Super Angulon XL on 4x5 will do it.

 

Larger format view cameras allow wide angle lenses to be far enough from the image plane to allow a much greater degree of tilt and swing. And the lenses often project large circles of view to accommodate this movement. You can also use the shift mechanism to recenter the image when using extreme tilts or swings. (This may not always be possible with a ts lens.)

 

I used to have a 360mm Symmar lens that I used on 4x5. It covered 11x14. That is roughly the equivalent of a 135mm lens on a 35mm camera. Can you imagine how much movement I could get with that lens on the 4x5 format?

[carstenw]

so as not to confuse..

Alpa is not a true view camera..it is a varition of a field camera..limited movements..only view cameras have full front and back movements.

 

I too am rethinking my needs and how to work in the S2..

I would like to see some leica expansion of the S2 to include an adapter to my rollei xact/2 or their own extended bellows with front movements for those that need only the front movements..

 

I don't know that the S2 would be satisfactory with the extreme movements given by a view camera, with those microlenses. It might be that it will be designed to work well with the S-system tilt-shift lens, but not beyond. I don't know how large the bayonet is either, and if it will allow the large shift movements.

[carstenw]

Leica has stated that a tilt/shift lens is being planned. That would answer this particular question.

 

Having a tilt-shift lens is not enough to remove the need for a view camera and its movements. I have recently acquired a Contax 645 and a Hartblei 45mm T/S lens, and I can readily see that the amount of shift will only cover minor corrections, compared to a view camera. I don't expect the Leica will be much different, especially with its microlenses. The tilt ability of the Hartblei is probably going to cover my needs, however.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[paulmoore]

Having a tilt-shift lens is not enough to remove the need for a view camera and its movements. I have recently acquired a Contax 645 and a Hartblei 45mm T/S lens, and I can readily see that the amount of shift will only cover minor corrections, compared to a view camera. I don't expect the Leica will be much different, especially with its microlenses. The tilt ability of the Hartblei is probably going to cover my needs, however.

 

I agree, only a full view camera will solve view camera issues.. but I do see a need for something between a monorail studio camera and the wide angle t/s lens on a slr. For my work a camera like the fuji680 with limited front movements goes a long way to adding some creative freedom. There is the novaflex balpro which might work as well. There will never be a camera that does it all.. too many phyical laws of nature to get around.. but adding a hasselblad hts type option would be great for the S2.. imho.