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s2 and d3

markowich

By markowich
in Leica S System

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markowich

markowich

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this is a good day for leica fans. the s2 price will drop after the d3x announcement (if leica behaves reasonably). superior everything except pixel count on the nikon side. and as far as pixel count is concerned, i had the P22 before upgrading to the P45 and the difference can only be seen on prints much larger than A1. and if you really want to go beyond that better buy the P65+ anyway (at bet with alpa view cameras). i gather the d3x will sell for around 6K euro, which means that the S2 should be priced under 10k euro.

peter

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sdai

sdai

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The D3x's sensor has a pixel pitch of 5.9um, which is tad smaller than the S2's Kodak pixel at 6um, at per pixel level there shouldn't be much difference between the two.

 

The D3x is the reference a S2 will be compared to whether you like it or not ... if Sony married Leica instead of Zeiss, the history shall be rewritten. :)

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markowich

markowich

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I'm quite impressed to see you can compare too cameras which are not available.

Can you predict weather and stock quotes too ?

 

weather prediction and stock development has become quite good recently due to math modeling. and you know pretty much what to expect from the d3 and from the s2. check the nikon and kodak (S2 sensor) track record. also some people have seen files.

peter

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marknorton

marknorton

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Nikon might like to make noises about the MF pretentions of the D3x (in the absence of any true MF offering of their own) but the Leica most likely to be compared to it is the R10. I think the two are likely to be priced similarly, with the S2 a distinct price and quality category higher.

 

As for what the D3x does, much will depend on how aggressive the low pass filter and how invasive their noise reduction is. I hope they have recognised that we do not expect D3 noise performance and leave things well alone.

 

Still, the D3 and D3x are ideal partners for me and I've confirmed my long-standing order with my dealer. An R10 would have been interesting from an IQ point of view (and wouldn't it be good to have some Leica glass in Nikon mount?) but it's just too long to wait.

 

The S2 is out of my league...

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mooky

mooky

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Since it was correctly stated that it's a bit presumptuous to compare a D3x to an S2 because neither are out yet. I'll state something even more obvious based on that - which is, the S2 and the D3x are COMPLETELY different cameras with different sized sensors, etc.

 

The fact that Nikon is promoting the sensor to be closer to a MF type is pure marketing-based verbage to help the camera sell in the increasingly tight market of 35 FF sensor cameras. I can't help but wonder when the D3x will be replaced? I'll wait for the R10, or if I'm really fortunate, I'll try the S2.

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John Collins

John Collins

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One thing that we have not yet considered are the lenses made for the systems in question. I don't know if Nikon is really interested in catering to an audience that will insist on the finest resolution currently available in optics. Another consideration is the use of anti-aliasing filters. From what I understand, Leica does not rely upon AA filters and has a reputation for a higher resolution output because of it. For a definitive answer, I think that we will have to wait until the S2 becomes available at retail.

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marknorton

marknorton

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That is certainly the theory, but the S-2 is at least 9 months away, maybe more, by which time the D3x will be well established and working fine, I feel certain. Leica have a huge mountain to climb and they have to wean themselves off announcing products before they are ready. A year is simply too long to wait.

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georg

georg

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Different cameras, different concepts, different technologies, different philosophy and different approach...

 

The S2 will be much slower (frame-rate and AF) and more expensive but will most likely offer way superior IQ (CCD, size, lack of AA-filter, real 16bit, 37MP and of course lenses),

It's even smaller (at least the body) and designed for different shooting (viewfinder, ergonomics, leaf shutter...).

 

The excellent 12MP (+ bigger pixels with better noise/DR) of the D3/D700 are more logical for a press/high-speed-camera with these lenses.

 

What's so special and surprising about the D3X? Isn't Canon offering the Mark3 with very similar specifications and Sony using the D3X-sensor in it's prosumer A900?

 

The S2 is for the small market that wants/needs highest IQ, will the S2+24mm offering this IQ: http://www.alpa.ch/files/news/85/ALPA_23hr_000089.jpg ? Very likely (+4MP, ~ years more advanced sensor!).

This is what a 2,5kg-Nikon-System (>6k$) delivers: http://img.koss.jp/blog/D3_1118_14-24_24mm_f2.8.JPG

 

Great for a 35mm-system but not nearly prof. medium-format/print-quality!

 

When will these silly Megapixel-based comments stop ("my 4/3 has 12MP, so it's as good as a D3, the new Mark IV will have 40MP so it will surpass a 39MP-back"...)?

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adan

adan

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"the s2 price will drop after the d3x announcement"

 

How will we know? No price has been set for the S2, so if Leica eventually says $15,000 - is that a "drop" from $20,000 because of the D3x, or just the price Leica had in mind all along?

 

I was at a Leica Day last week where someone was expressing interest in the S2 - "I know it will be more expensive than Canon or Nikon," he said. "So what will the price be? $4,000, $5,000, $6,000?"

 

The other Leica guy I was with and I were just shaking our heads...

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sdai

sdai

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Good luck with your medium format (wannabe) ... I'm sure you've seen these?

 

swiatobrazu.pl - ... i stanê³y naprzeciw siebie Hasselblad H3, Mamiya AFDIII, Sony Alpha 900 - test porównawczy

 

a900 +CZ24-70 compared to Hasselblad H1-P30: Sony SLR Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

 

On Monday, you will be able to download some D3x samples.

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pascal_meheut

pascal_meheut

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stock development has become quite good recently due to math modeling.

 

Yes, I guess the whole planet noticed this recently :D

 

Also, other pointed out that the quality will probably be different. But did you notice that camera offering a lot of what the D3X will have are already available: Canon Eos1DsIII, Canon 5DII, Sony Alpha 900 (with some Zeiss lenses)...

And they are all less expensive than any MF back/camera...

 

Yet, some photographers continue to buy Blad, Phase One, Leaf...

 

Anyway, we hear the same story each time a new camera appears: that it will have a profound impact on the market, that brand X will be in big trouble, etc.

What happened so far is that brands have been in trouble for ignoring huge trends or investing in the wrong segment and refusing to change. Never because of 1 camera of 1 competitor.

 

But again, thanks for explaining such interesting things like how it is now easy to predict stock values using maths. I didn't know the two of them were even related ;)

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markowich

markowich

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Yes, I guess the whole planet noticed this recently :D

 

does this comment reflect your understanding of global economics or did you just want to be funny?

to get back to canikon/leica, what i wanted to say is that the d3x is a very convincing offering, particularly once you have seen RAWs. and the camera will be available (very) soon. nothing like mr kauffmanns announcement with one year later (maybe) delivery.

somewhat reminiscent of RED, but mr. jannard's pre/announcements are definitely more entertaining (although they have to be taken with the same fiction-factor as leica's).

to be fair, the RD investment of canikon cannot be compared to leica's, so there is no miracles to be expected from the S2. i am convinced that the kodak sensor will deliver on base iso and slightly above (see the present generation of phaseone and hassy backs), the phaseone software will work well, the leica lenses will be very sweet (would like to have them on d3x), the super-duper one-point autofocus will hunt as hassy's.... so the s2 will be quite attractive, unless leica messes up as in the m8 intro.

for 7-9k euro it might be an interesting package.

but then again, the same can be said about the hassy h system, the mamiya 645 and the leaf FH camera. i believe they all have to face up to a different future.

peter

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Rona!d

Rona!d

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Peter, also very good news for future NIKON D3X users!

 

Leica D-Lux4 has about 10 MPix, Nikon D3X about 24 MPix (= 2.4 x more).

 

that means:

 

Leica D-Lux4 costs about 650,- $, Nikon D3X will have to cost about 1.560,- $ (= 2.4 x more).

 

:D

 

this is a good day for leica fans. the s2 price will drop after the d3x announcement (if leica behaves reasonably). superior everything except pixel count on the nikon side. and as far as pixel count is concerned, i had the P22 before upgrading to the P45 and the difference can only be seen on prints much larger than A1. and if you really want to go beyond that better buy the P65+ anyway (at bet with alpa view cameras). i gather the d3x will sell for around 6K euro, which means that the S2 should be priced under 10k euro.

peter

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sean_reid

sean_reid

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The price of the S2, as plans now stand, is going to be related to the price of medium format backs (at the time it is launched). The 1Ds Mark III and Nikon D3X may compete with it (or not) but I'm not sure that their prices will affect the S2's price.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

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AlanG

AlanG

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... and the camera will be available (very) soon. nothing like mr kauffmanns announcement with one year later (maybe) delivery.

somewhat reminiscent of RED, but mr. jannard's pre/announcements are definitely more entertaining (although they have to be taken with the same fiction-factor as leica's)...

 

I am not sure what you mean by fiction-factor. Leica announced that they expect the S2 will be available next summer. Since I actually shot photos with one of the sample cameras more than a month ago, this seems doable to me.

 

How successful the camera is likely to be is another matter. I tend to agree with you that it will be a tough market for all MF cameras in the future. Most photographers only need so much resolution, and what they currently have is often overkill. And that additional resolution comes with significant trade-offs that may work against getting the "best" image.

 

Consider that 16 bit RGB tiffs from the S2 will be around 220 megabytes. I don't think that many of my clients would want to routinely receive a whole bunch of files this size to sort through and deal with. (Perhaps only on the occasion when something needs to be printed very large.) I am almost certain to buy the 5DII but even that will make 125 megabyte 16 bit tiffs. So most likely I am going to give smaller files to my clients and only convert to large 16 bit files when they need them or for images that I want for myself.

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