To Leica from an angry customer

[haris]

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Yes, though it will be distributed by Cosina/Voigtlander outside of Japan/ I'll be interested to see the price and read a few tests.

 

Yes, as I have read, outside of Japan it will have name Bessa III

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The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[Guest DuquesneG]

I have to agree with forum members who say if you don't like what Leica offers in digital, just buy something else. That's what 99.9% of photographers (pros, serious amateurs, rank amateurs...everyone) do, and the world at large barely knows the name Leica. Dr. Kaufmann is clear in the direction he intends to steer his own company. A few rebadged Panasonics selling for 50% or more over the cost of their Panasonic twins for people who are strictly into the name Leica, and ultra-expensive systems made in limited (vs other brands) quantities for people where price is no object. Whoever isn't in agreement with Dr. Kaufmann's business plan is welcome to join Steven Lee and those 99.9% of photographers around the world. This forum is a place to hear the choir sing, and to preach to it, not against it.

[stunsworth]

This forum is a place to hear the choir sing, and to preach to it, not against it.

 

Given that this is a Leica forum, and most of us have chosen Leica because we prefer them to an alternative what do you expect?

 

If I wanted to spend time in a forum whose main purpose was to ridicule the company and its products, at each and every opportunity, I'd visit Photo.net more often.

[JosefSchachner]

If I read (and understand) sinwen's rant correctly then is it not so much that he does not like Leica, but more the almost fact that the development seems for him to go to a company that is making the quick n' dirty pana rebadge for a buck on one side and the ultra-luxurious gear on the other side, but no gear that can compete with other "pro-gear" in 135 from a price point of view. The N&C primes are to my eyes not substantial worse than Leica Glas, and a LOT cheaper. They may not have the last edge on finish and the silky smooth feeling of the Leica-glass, but the Canon L-Lenses I know handle an feel pretty well. This said, there is still something most of us here like / find special / is better than elsewhere, that keeps our hearts and wallets open for the red dot. I think Leica does not want to become an other medium size / price player in the photomarket, an in my opinion with good reason.

As example I recently saw an offer (here in NL) for a Canon 5D (old model) with 2.8/35-70L and 70-200L for around 4.6k Euro, comparing that with an M8 (old model) with lets say the 4/28-35-50 you are looking at twice as much. I am aware that this is not really a comparison as the 5D is a in my eyes big monster with equally sized lenses, but for a lot of my friends how are moving up from the upper-consumer cameras this is hard to argue with. But even if you look in the film domain, if the Hasselblad 503 is substantial cheaper than an M7 or MP then things got a little out of hand I think.

 

Now excuse me while I hunt that lux 35 asp down that is missing for my next trip ;-)

[Guest DuquesneG]

Given that this is a Leica forum, and most of us have chosen Leica because we prefer them to an alternative what do you expect?

 

If I wanted to spend time in a forum whose main purpose was to ridicule the company and its products, at each and every opportunity, I'd visit Photo.net more often.

 

Maybe something in-between the two extremes? Not everyone who chose Leica did so because we prefer them to an alternative in the absolute. Many of us also use one or more of those alternatives, and many of us find that at least in certain circumstances, they perform better than Leica. That some people feel it has to be a for-or-against proposition seems to me more about personality issues and brand fetishism than photography or technology.

[NZDavid]

Angry? Evidently. Customer? Potential new customer, possibly. But your complaint is about what Leica DOESN'T have, not about those Leica products you do own -- and with which you are presumably quite happy.

 

Many people want the newest and latest at the cheapest possible price. Then, once they buy a product, they immediately complain a competitor has brought out something else with more features at a more competitive price. That mindset makes it impossible to ever be satisfied.

 

Looks like Dr. Kaufmann has a clear strategic plan -- and we are certain to see more new Leica products.

[earleygallery]

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......... and the world at large barely knows the name Leica.

 

I often have people stop and ask 'is that a Leica' when I'm using my lllf or M2 (less so with the R but then its not so distinctive). In fact I was using my Nikon F2 recently and this young lad asked me if it was a Leica!

 

And where do you get your stats from btw?

[JBA]

As for the criticism that Leica makes jewelery, there is a fairly sizeable collector market. If you don't need a gold-plated Leica for your private museum, don't buy one. It's that simple.

 

As for the criticism that people aren't buying new Leicas, there's a camera shop in Tokyo that has at least a dozen used M7s and half a dozen M8s on sale. If somebody hadn't bought them new, they'd never have ended up on the used market. It's probably a safe bet that more people keep their new Leicas than sell them, so those used cameras represent only a small fraction of the new ones sold.

Just because you're not buying new doesn't mean no one is.

[pgk]

This forum is a place to hear the choir sing, and to preach to it, not against it.

 

Or perhaps to correct misinformation? I see a lot of comments here which give the impression of being universal truths, but which quite simply do not mirror my own experience. Sure the M8 isn't a perfect camera but it does take very nice images (which is what its all about I seem to remember), and no the R10 isn't available yet - but it is in the pipeline. Just enjoy what you are already using and wait with pleasurable anticipation for what will be produced...chill!

[wattsy]

In fact, I will take my Leica gear into the heart of Africa for an extented journey today, and only emerge in the beginning of November

 

Blimey Jaap, you make it sound like you are some latter day Speke or Burton. I presume that you are actually going on some kind of organised safari/trek?

[piero]

don't want to feed a polemic post and I can understand disappointment, but:

my signature comes to mind.

Had I bought a 1DsMKII when it came out instead of keeping on renting it I would find myself with a 16MP sensor that's worth less that 2.000€ used.

Had I bought the 1DsMKIII I would be very frustrated now because for a third of the price I can do he same with a 5DMKII. I don't shoot sport so I can do without the extras of the MKIII and, even if I say this, let us all remember the little problems of the early MKIII.

 

I bought an M8 instead, for the joy of finally having a Leica and the nice Summicrons and go out and take pictures in a different way than I would with my Sinar or with the Canon.

I miss shooting film, but I know I would not rebuilt the darkroom, so the point is moot.

 

Should Leica come out with a FF Sensor and NOT allow M8 owners to upgrade?

I would be very pissed, but then again, What about the car industry? The phone industry?

the computer industry...

 

Do we think that not having the latest tool will prevent us to shoot that image that will turn us out into the new H C-Bs???

 

Sometimes I feel we all concentrate too much on the 'how to do it' instead of the 'what to do'. I make a living shooting with cameras other the Leicas. I remind myself of that when I get the itch...and for the moment I enjoy my M8.

[ChrisC]

I am an old timer Leica customer, M3, M6, RE, R6 with seven lenses...

 

A curious post. With my M8 purchase I was a first time Leica customer [though a long-time 120 film rangefinder camera user]. I bought into the M8 after lengthy consideration and some concerns that Leica might be close to financial failure, nonetheless I bought. The people who bought the M8 went, I believe, a long way towards saving Leica; they are Leica customers. Sinwen is an ex-customer, possibly a potential future customer, but he[?] clearly wasn't prepared to give Leica custom when the company appeared to be 'on the ropes'. His criticisms have been made by others many times, more concisely, more effectively, and with customer 'weight' in another place - yet his post conveys the gravity of an important original voice shouting at Leica. A curious post.

 

................ Chris

[rob_x2004]

Wow! Thanks for the synopsis, Chris. I only got as far as "I am an old timer with an M3" or something.

[bobtodrick]

gee...sinwen hasn't replied to any responses...I hope he hasn't burst a blood vessel!

[cmatter]

I don't think I've ever... in years and years, bought anything new Leica.

[Guest DuquesneG]

I often have people stop and ask 'is that a Leica' when I'm using my lllf or M2 (less so with the R but then its not so distinctive). In fact I was using my Nikon F2 recently and this young lad asked me if it was a Leica!

 

And where do you get your stats from btw?

 

Certainly not based on people who see a camera with "Nikon" in large font smack on the front and ask if it's a Leica In the world at large, very few people know or recognize the name Leica compared to Nikon or Canon. Of those that do, most are into photography, or had a father/uncle/grandfather who was, and who owned or talked about wanting to own a Leica. A few anecdotal (and unverifiable) examples of people who recognize (or think they do) a Leica does not disprove the foregoing. I'm sure I could find a fair number of people who know what a Humber Super Snipe is, but that doesn't disprove the statement that 99.9% of the world's population has never heard of it. That's not a bash of Leica product, BTW (saying so preemptively for those who are hypersensitive). Maybe it's a bash of Leica marketing, if anything. After all, mass-recognition is the result of marketing, not necessarily a superlative product.

[Dikdik]

I am an old timer Leica customer, M3, M6, RE, R6 with seven lenses, and I am very mad and dissatisfied to say the least by Leica these last few years because, I have to face it, I was under the illusion they would at last produce a sensible digital camera after so many years.

This Photokina was a dead line and my disappointment is high.

 

.......................................

 

All the best.

 

 

 

Hello Sinwen,

 

I can understand you very well. I feel the same frustration like you.

We - my wife and me - are in a very similar situation. Since more than 27 years we are using the R-system exclusively. But now we need a digital camera. Some of our photos we used to sell to support our hobby. And for that a digital camera is in todays time a "conditio sine qua non".

The unquestionable excellent S2 is in our situation unattainable. And we need for our work telelenses with a focal length of 400 to 600 mm and even more sometimes we have to use extenders. Some animals are very shy.

 

At this year's Photokina we discussed with the Leica crew in Cologne some details of the new R 10. And they told us, that at this moment there is absolutely no fixed plan of this new camera except the fact, that the company will construct and will built this camera. Furthermore they have told us, that it would be absolutely unrealistic to expect this R 10 before the next Photokina in 2010! So we will have to wait another two year's period of time as a minimum!

 

But, you are absolutely correct saying: we need this equipment today!!

 

And therefore - unfortunately, I am sorry to say - we made the decision to change the system.

 

Today we are not sure to come back to Leica within the next few years. The Apo-lenses and one ore two auf our R- cameras we will retain. The rest is history.

 

We are really sad about this. We trust the cameras in all the years in each situation and they never - really never - had only one problem. The cameras endured sandstorms and dust in the Namib and Kalahari desert as they resist rain and snow in arctic and antartic regions. They never failed. A wonderful equipment!

 

But now we have to go to other horizons. We will open a new chapter and we are absolutely not happy about this!!!!

 

A very sad and frustrated

 

Dikdik

[Saloti]

In fact, I will take my Leica gear into the heart of Africa for an extented journey today, and only emerge in the beginning of November....I've been doing that since 1988, and only digressed to Canon around the turn of the century, as Leica had indeed lagged somewhat behind digitally. The return to Leica's products has been the most rewarding step I ever made photographically, so I find it hard to read much sense in the OP...

Anyway, I might find an internet connection once or twice in the coming time to see what is happening over here .

 

Have a nice trip, and - share the photos later!

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[sinwen]

Dikdyk,

 

I can assure you we are many in this situation, but we don't hang over forums, because we spend our time using the equipment.

Many have already made the switch to some other brand, we are probably some of the most patient with Leica.

 

I wrote this thread because I probably like and respect Leica much more than those nayLeica Forehead tattoed filling this forum.

TO THEM: rush and buy this new M8-2 with the new Noctilux before buying the full S2 system next summer, actually you should put down the money right now, because you see until this date Leica will have a very hard time, building a new plant during a terrible

economic crisis and having just a non-event M8-2 to sell !

You already have a M8 ! Great you'll love the M8-2 ! As money is no big deal help yourself and a Noctilux or two, one for each body ! To snap your garden flowers it is a must have !But you better do so.... to sustain Leica because they may never be able to produce the S2 and that would terrible for you !

BTW don't forget to buy the new lizard strap for 1K$, it is so much better, really !

Be nice sheeps, get fleeced !

[bill]

Bless.

 

There's nothing quite like a self-appointed spokesman. Sinwen, at least pretend to try to see the bigger picture. Go on. You'll feel better.

 

Regards,

 

Bill