To Leica from an angry customer

[sinwen]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I am an old timer Leica customer, M3, M6, RE, R6 with seven lenses, and I am very mad and dissatisfied to say the least by Leica these last few years because, I have to face it, I was under the illusion they would at last produce a sensible digital camera after so many years.

This Photokina was a dead line and my disappointment is high.

 

But to understand lets go back to the beginning.

In the film days Leica provided first rate mechanical cameras at very high prices, simple and long lasting, the top premium spent could be justified in that respect, one ten years investment. But still Leica played on it and sometime fool themselves with golden jubilee. The camera business isn't jewellery, a watch can be plain gold casted, not a camera and a plated gold item isn't a jewel.

Camera manufacturing is no luxury business, but Leica is still in this mindset.

Leica confused the businesses and mixed up prices.

 

Then digital era arose and Leica was sleeping. They finally proposed the DMR, a reserved R8/R9 owners digital back. The thought behind was that every R owners would rush to buy a R9+DMR following their great reputation. Missed ! At the indecent 5K$ for a bulky DMR alone, it didn't fit many. Proof it was a wrong commercial and technical choice, it is discontinued for a long time now and R owners are left behind. Even if Leica faced problems with a supplier, when a concept is good, you find means to produce it. They didn't because it was a failure !

 

In fact they fail to understand that digital add “electronic” into the equation, which in return means fast obsolescence, poor reliability, therefore quick turnover and low prices. It also means the second hand market is virtually non existent. Getting back to luxury, watches of value are mechanical, not electronic.

 

Then after another long period came the M8, a flawed 5K$ piece of electronic with a very annoying cropping factor. It was that bad that they proposed a special upgrade plan/contract for another 1K to partially correct misconception. We don't hear about it anymore, they propose the M8-2 instead.

So many customers were waiting for this M digital that it probably sold quite well. Quid of the following M8-2, the ones who wanted one M8 have already bought it, will they plunge into the upgrade for 6K$ ?

Proof Leica misunderstood the digital market was their declaration the M8 concept was here to last!

Hey ! They didn't mention the length! They speak of FF M9 now!

M8 owners are going to cry the day they want to switch to FF M9, because their beautiful M8 will have no resale value. They will need to dig their pockets again for another 6 or 7K$.

Final joke, Leica present a new 50mm M lens for 9K$, you better have “black holes” type of pocket, deeper than deep. Why did they spent time and money in R&D for such product ? The M9 should have been here at photokina and on the shelves in October if they wanted to be in the wagon !

 

Instead, Leica propose the beautiful new S system, probably wonderful, but the entry is 20K$ ! Delivery will be in 10 Months time at best, this is centuries in digital age ! I have a nice and more useful car for that price, right now, is it another subject ?

OK, let say Leica targets the professional market with this one. From what I read, pros have been cooled by the M8. They wait to see if it is reliable and just don't want to deal with after sales service anymore, they complain a lot about it if you hear them. It took months to recover their brain new flawed camera with no informations of what was going on. This kills a pro market, if something is wrong they need an exchange within 24h, obvious, even amateurs cannot wait for months and deserve at least some attention, you ask for top price give top service in return.

 

But these pros didn't wait for Leica and if they needed MF sensor they already have it with the traditional MF brands. And while they applaud to the news, they don't seem prepared to make the switch. Beside the price there is the concept, the S system is fixed back, means fixed sensor, and again this is “electronic”. As soon as an improvements hit the market, they just have to change the back, not the camera. Moreover they can switch to film instantly if nescessary.

Therefore, the S2 must not cost more than a MF back to be updated each time some useful technology is implemented. They can't renew a 20K$ camera every two years.

Moreover, the actual economic crisis is going to hit them badly, they will have to be very careful on budget.

In other words, we amateurs and professionals, all applaud to the beauty but wont buy it.

 

M.Kauffman says “R10” is on the way. Great ! Understand you'll have to wait at least a year an a half for a 6 to 7K$ camera with today's technology. (sic !!). Again the R10 should have been here TODAY if not long ago and at a competitive price! We don't care for the bells and whistles but we care about price and when you over shoot the market, when you give one while the competition gives two or more, all your hard work and efforts wont be rewarded. It could have been during mechanical technology time, tho already difficult, but it cannot be now with digital!

We are waiting for years now for just a FF R6, simple, light, at the right price which is the price of the competitors.

 

Leica R customers had to find a way as nothing was coming. Most joined the competition, with just an adapted ring they could use their R lenses, fine. But they also tried and bought the competitors lenses, as many sales lost for Leica and some of these customers are lost may be forever. The worm is in the fruit for a long time now, never under-estimate the competition.

Even if Leica decided today to concentrate only on lenses manufacturing, the competition didn't wait for them, and they are a step behind. Zeiss is already doing that very well. By the way, notice they don't have much electronic in their lenses, the tendency to add motors, ships and who knows what else is simply a gamble on reliability.

 

Sadly this Photokina is no good news for Leica customers and I fear the worst for the brand I kindly regarded.

Until next spring, planned launching period for the S system, what will be the sales of Leica ? M8-2 and lenses, but it seems quite saturated by the first model and I guess the 9K$ Noctilux won't be a star selling. Will that be enough to survive ?

 

Owner of both M and R systems, I refused to slaughter my bank account for a piece of electronic and I never will ! Leica has to land and hear that!

 

All the best.

[jaapv]

May I direct you to this site: Nikon | Home

Getting angry is only bad for your heart. I have a very simple philosophy: If I don't like the way things are going in one place, I move to another. I might add, I have seen no reason to move away from Leica, but that is just me, as I am very happy with my M8 and DMR....

[bill]

May I direct you to this site: Nikon | Home

Getting angry is only bad for your heart. I have a very simple philosophy: If I don't like the way things are going in one place, I move to another. I might add, I have seen no reason to move away from Leica, but that is just me, as I am very happy with my M8 and DMR....

 

Sound advice, Jaap.

 

Sinwen, thank you for today's dollop of arrant nonsense. Most people manage to take less space to make their points, though - brevity is a useful skill when ranting, because it gives you more time to breathe between splenetic vents.

 

"We tend to forget that happiness doesn't come as a result of getting something we don't have, but rather of recognizing and appreciating what we do have."

 

Frederick Koenig

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[stunsworth]

My, that must have taken a long time to type.

[earleygallery]

Sorry, couldn't be bothered to read through all of that but If you want to make pictures and don't like the equipment Leica can provide for making pictures, then make your pictures with something else.

[kdemas]

There are many choices out there now so if the Leica development path isn't for you, give another brand a try. Personally I am finding these types of threads pretty mind numbing (my fault, I keep reading them!).

 

I am happy with my M8 and with the roadmap ahead. We all wish for certain requirements specific to our personal needs but I think leica is doing a nice job for a campanu their size.

 

Now, time to pop my Hologon on my M8 and shoot some pictures

 

Kent

[like_no_other]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Sinwen, probably you managed to summarize in a few words what the forum community has been talking and fighting about for many months or a few years.

 

I think that some have closed this chapter in their books after Photokina.

 

But! Mr. Kaufmann had told in interviews that there are some products planned between compact cameras and cameras of the price level of M8/R10.

With good look you could adopt your lenses to one of these. You are part of the majority of Leica customers who have some lenses and don't like to spend the big money for M8/M9/R10 products.

Leica would be stupid to let these people go by not offering a fitting product.

[el.nino]

I am an old timer Leica customer, M3, M6, RE, R6 with seven lenses, and I am very mad and dissatisfied to say the least by Leica these last few years because, I have to face it, I was under the illusion they would at last produce a sensible digital camera after so many years.

This Photokina was a dead line and my disappointment is high.

....

....

Owner of both M and R systems, I refused to slaughter my bank account for a piece of electronic and I never will ! Leica has to land and hear that!

 

All the best.

 

get a film and stop complaining!

[Kent10D]

Jeepers Sinwen ...

 

For what you're going to end up paying in medical bills if you keep ranting like that you could buy an S2 system!

 

Breathe deeply and repeat: "It's only a camera, it's only a camera ..."

 

Kent.

[budrichard]

sinwen , your living in the past. You haven't purchased a new piece of Leica kit in years and that exactly is the problem. You and the many other Leica film users are not a market(I count myself in that market), so Leica needs to look elsewhere. Digital for Professionals is shaking itself out and it looks like the S2, Nikon MX and Hasselblad among others will fight it out for the Professional Digital market where there is some money to be made.

The film users will use what they have until film is not economically viable and then be forced to switch. Want to purchase any Polaroid cameras?-Dick

[jaapv]

In fact, I will take my Leica gear into the heart of Africa for an extented journey today, and only emerge in the beginning of November....I've been doing that since 1988, and only digressed to Canon around the turn of the century, as Leica had indeed lagged somewhat behind digitally. The return to Leica's products has been the most rewarding step I ever made photographically, so I find it hard to read much sense in the OP...

Anyway, I might find an internet connection once or twice in the coming time to see what is happening over here .

[Theodor Heinrichsohn]

Now, time to pop my Hologon on my M8 and shoot some pictures

 

Kent

 

Hi Kent,

Which Hologon? The old 15mm or the adapted 16mm from Contax G times? What about light metering?

Teddy

[SJP]

In fact, I will take my Leica gear into the heart of Africa for an extented journey today, and only emerge in the beginning of November....I've been doing that since 1988, and only digressed to Canon around the turn of the century, as Leica had indeed lagged somewhat behind digitally. The return to Leica's products has been the most rewarding step I ever made photographically, so I find it hard to read much sense in the OP...

Anyway, I might find an internet connection once or twice in the coming time to see what is happening over here .

Have a great and safe trip! Looking foreward to pictures that I expect you will like to share.

[leicabug]

Be grateful that Leica is still around. As long as she is alive, we have some toys to play with. They may not be the most advanced or most affordable, but they use the best optics. I am content with M8. It allows me to use all my M lenses. I don't want to spend any more moeny to upgrade as I have already spent too much money on M8.

[kdemas]

Now, time to pop my Hologon on my M8 and shoot some pictures

 

Kent

 

Hi Kent,

Which Hologon? The old 15mm or the adapted 16mm from Contax G times? What about light metering?

Teddy

 

 

Teddy,

 

I wish it was the old 15mm, it's the remounted 16mm G lens. Humerously I have a ton of G gear, which I really like, but the only lens I never bought was the 16.

 

As fir metering I use a handheld or chimp the histogram. I need to get my conversion modified to allow for proper in camera metering.

 

Kent

[haris]

Sinwen, probably you managed to summarize in a few words what the forum community has been talking and fighting about for many months or a few years.

 

I think that some have closed this chapter in their books after Photokina.

 

But! Mr. Kaufmann had told in interviews that there are some products planned between compact cameras and cameras of the price level of M8/R10.

With good look you could adopt your lenses to one of these. You are part of the majority of Leica customers who have some lenses and don't like to spend the big money for M8/M9/R10 products.

Leica would be stupid to let these people go by not offering a fitting product.

 

And that is issue. Leica is considered as best as can be at high price. If they start to make not best as can be for affordable price, that will be oposite of what is Leica now. So, will that mark a declining of quality for economy reasons? Will that be a Leica (philosophically and traditionally speaking)? Will that be death of one more tradition?

 

Questions, questions...

[haris]

sinwen , your living in the past. You haven't purchased a new piece of Leica kit in years and that exactly is the problem. You and the many other Leica film users are not a market(I count myself in that market), so Leica needs to look elsewhere. Digital for Professionals is shaking itself out and it looks like the S2, Nikon MX and Hasselblad among others will fight it out for the Professional Digital market where there is some money to be made.

The film users will use what they have until film is not economically viable and then be forced to switch. Want to purchase any Polaroid cameras?-Dick

 

FIlm will be made untill there are people (and cameras) to use it. And people will use film cameras untill there is a film. One is feeding other. Luckilly there are still strong film camera makers, for example Cosina/Voigtlaender in 35mm in past 10 yers made most new camera models, Fuji just introduced new 120 (6x6, 6x7 dual format) folder rangefinder, and not forget large format camera makers, where Chinese manufactureres (Shen Hao ans Chamonix) are more and more popular, and they have hard time (and some waiting time) to fulfill demand.

 

FIlm photography is not only 35mm, even if in 35mm there still are Leica M7, MP, R9, Nikom F6, Canon EOS 1V, Cosina/Voigtlaender Bessa range.

 

And not forget film/paper/chemistry makers Kodak, Fuji, Ilford, Adox, Forte, Moerch...

 

Film users have no fear about must to swich to digi.

 

SO, if Leica wants people to buy their new film cameras, they have to find a way how to do that. People still buy new film cameras, and if they don't buy Leica new cameras, it is up to Leica to find out why, and to change that.

 

Or, to stop make and forget film camera users. That would be sad, but there are others, so again, it is up to Leica.

 

To answer first sentence of your post, using film in not living in past.

[stunsworth]

Fuji just introduced new 120 (6x6, 6x7 dual format) folder rangefinder

 

Yes, though it will be distributed by Cosina/Voigtlander outside of Japan/ I'll be interested to see the price and read a few tests.

[Theodor Heinrichsohn]

Teddy,

 

I wish it was the old 15mm, it's the remounted 16mm G lens. Humerously I have a ton of G gear, which I really like, but the only lens I never bought was the 16.

 

As fir metering I use a handheld or chimp the histogram. I need to get my conversion modified to allow for proper in camera metering.

 

Kent

 

Thanks, Kent.

I use the old 15mm Hologon on the M8, quite often without the grey filter, using a hand held Minolta meter. I have the 16mm as well, which I was given as a present more than 10 years ago together with the G camera, the 28, 35,40 and 90 lneses (!!). I hesitate to have the 16mm converted. The 15mm is practically distortionless but definition is not up to modern Leica lenses.

Some time last year, a forum member in Bangkok posted quite a few 16mm Hologon pictures taken with an M8 which were quite impressive. I don't know of a conversion that permits TTL metering in the M8.

Teddy

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[kdemas]

Thanks, Kent.

I use the old 15mm Hologon on the M8, quite often without the grey filter, using a hand held Minolta meter. I have the 16mm as well, which I was given as a present more than 10 years ago together with the G camera, the 28, 35,40 and 90 lneses (!!). I hesitate to have the 16mm converted. The 15mm is practically distortionless but definition is not up to modern Leica lenses.

Some time last year, a forum member in Bangkok posted quite a few 16mm Hologon pictures taken with an M8 which were quite impressive. I don't know of a conversion that permits TTL metering in the M8.

Teddy

 

I believe DAG is able to modify it to work just fine