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Mr. Kaufmann on S2 price, production start, R-compability


redfalo

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...they'd been told by Leica UK to keep it low key at the moment, and not to take any provisional orders or start an official waiting list.

 

I expect the S2 is in the "later" tray and they're still thinking about opening that box with D-M-R on the side to find out what's inside...

 

Their presence in the UK market is next to invisible and their idea of marketing seems to be to fax a press release to Amateur Photographer...

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I expect the S2 is in the "later" tray and they're still thinking about opening that box with D-M-R on the side to find out what's inside...

 

Their presence in the UK market is next to invisible and their idea of marketing seems to be to fax a press release to Amateur Photographer...

:D :D

 

Fully agree Mark. Prior to a recent move my local dealership, a Premier dealer no less, occupied one corner of a chemists shop. Another Premier dealer told me last week that no information existed and that only wooden mockups were exhibited at photokina....

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I just recently spoke to a well known british Leica dealer regarding an order and we also spoke a bit about the S2.

They said the price was going to be 7500 GBP (may have been 6500 GBP, can't remember exactly).

 

I bet that price included your R8/9 plus DMR back and all your R lenses in part exchange though!! Incidentally I hear that there is a demand for used DMR backs right now with some Leica dealers particularly in London. Dear old Robert White however down in Poole are not the slightest bit interested in anything "R".......but they seemed to lose the R plot years ago, backing Nikon instead. I bet they go for the S2 though...that is if Hasselblad let them.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Just tried Leica UK with a different approach, this time asking about the proposed Professional Support service.

 

Despite being mentioned on the S2 site as starting in January 2009, they could offer no information about how and when it might be implemented. I guess that if they know anything at all about the S2 they're under instructions to keep quiet about it for the time being. Or perhaps they really do know nothing?:eek:

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if the service is not on a Pro level than seriously not many MF shooters will even bother. This is more important than anything else and i can't express that enough

 

Absolutely.

 

I was very pissed off when I got the little-vertical-line problem on my M8 and Leica just calmly took my camera away for a couple of months as if that was completely acceptable, even for an amateur, with a camera in this price range.

 

This is the first camera I have owned in 30 years which has failed under warranty (although a Canon lens did once). No forum is ever a statistically valid sample, but my gut feel tells me there are too many failures out there in M8 land.

 

So before I part with S2 money, I'd like some reassurance that there has been a substantial improvement in build quality, as well as a repair service which doesn't take my camera out of my hands for months.

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We need to remember there are no 1.4 lenses in MF shooting . The fastest lens is a 110mm f2, Maybe one other but the point being the DOF is so shallow with a 2.8 lens it acts more like a 1.4 lens for 35mm. Actually shooting MF myself it really is like a 2 stop DOF difference between MF and 35mm. So even F4 lenses will feel more like F2 in 35mm with regards to DOF. keep this in mind when you are debating the speed of these lenses. Also there is nothing over ISO 1600 at the present time. MF is just a slower world and need to understand that.

 

 

Guy

 

Hi ! Mamiya did make an 80mm f/1.9 for its 645 cameras. It is my belief that a lens remains the same no matter what format/sensor it is used in front of, so an 80 f/1.4 will remain an 80 f/1.4 with all its attributes remaining the same: close focussing, focal length, aperture and depth of field.

 

The only thing that changes, is the angle of view, provided by the lens, that actually gets used used by the different sized film/sensor, so that the image circle is either cropped down to give a slight telephoto view [ say in an R8/9 ] or the whole field of view given by that lens, is used to try to cover a larger film/sensor size such as the S2 - which is 54mm in diameter as against the usual Leica film diagonal of 43mm, and this should allow the greater part of the full S2 format to be used to good effect by say the 80mm f/1.4.

 

Most lenses cover slightly more than the format size they were designed for, especially longer lenses

 

Of course if the S2 format is cropped down to FF 35mm size then there will no difference at all .

 

Regards

 

Bruno

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Guest guy_mancuso

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Yes they did make a 80mm 1.9 lens it is not of new design though and it is manual focus. You can however use it and have a friend that has one. It is not your leica anything 1.4 lens though by any means but does have a nice softy look. I guess i should have clarified that better with new design or AF. On the DOF issue not much between the different size sensors because if anything there just cropped versions and not by much so the effect is not as great if any but the difference between 35mm FF format and MF is big so yes the DOF at a given aperture and focal lengths between the two systems is different. I have to stop down more in MF than i would in 35mm FF given the same effective focal length. Example to shoot my 150mm Mamiya lens at say F12 I get from the eye lash to maybe the ear in focus with the same effective 35mm focal length at f12 i would get much more DOF. Most folks would call it a 2 stop DOF difference , i say that is about right .

 

Here is a good example this was at F10 though with my 150mm Mamiya 2.8 D lens. See how fast the DOF falloff really is. This is a crop.

 

Now imagine that with a 90mm or so at F10 with a DSLR you see you would get a lot more DOF at that aperture

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Guest guy_mancuso

BTW i would expect this kind of quality coming off the S2 , this is one area that i really am not concerned about with the S2 it will produce great quality. Everything else that goes with that I question because it is unknown but these sensors are amazing so that part of it is a less of a concern since we are shooting very comparable sensors today and this image was on my Phase P25 plus which is a 22mpx sensor. The MPX mean much less in my opinion it is the size that i really think is where the quality of files comes from.

 

BTW this is not sharpened either. If this is what you are after than the S2 should do it.

 

 

Oops i take that back this is the P30 plus back which is 31mpx sensor with micro lenses and 6.8 microns. This back and sensor will be the most comparable to the S2 which is 37mpx and 6 micron and micro lenses. Frankly this back should be the test bed against the S2. This is also a crop sensor 1.3

 

I was doing my workshop and shooting all three Phase backs reason I got confused until I checked the Exif data but normally I have the P25 plus

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Yes they did make a 80mm 1.9 lens it is not of new design though and it is manual focus. You can however use it and have a friend that has one. It is not your leica anything 1.4 lens though by any means but does have a nice softy look. I guess i should have clarified that better with new design or AF. On the DOF issue not much between the different size sensors because if anything there just cropped versions and not by much so the effect is not as great if any but the difference between 35mm FF format and MF is big so yes the DOF at a given aperture and focal lengths between the two systems is different. I have to stop down more in MF than i would in 35mm FF given the same effective focal length. Example to shoot my 150mm Mamiya lens at say F12 I get from the eye lash to maybe the ear in focus with the same effective 35mm focal length at f12 i would get much more DOF. Most folks would call it a 2 stop DOF difference , i say that is about right .

 

Here is a good example this was at F10 though with my 150mm Mamiya 2.8 D lens. See how fast the DOF falloff really is. This is a crop.

 

Now imagine that with a 90mm or so at F10 with a DSLR you see you would get a lot more DOF at that aperture

 

 

Guy Hi

 

The reason for the differing D.O.F is because you were using 2 different focal lenght lenses, one a 150mm and the other [ in your assumption ] a 90mm which of course would give more D.O.F.

 

 

I have an adaptor that allows me to use my Hasselblad lenses on my R8, and I have tested this in the past when I took a picture centered on a head sculpture with the Hasselblad 100mm lens, and then mounted that lens on my R8 and took the same view, centered on the head sculture with that set up and from exactly the same position on the same tripod. I also puts a Leica 100mm lens on the R8 and when I got the slides back I cut a 24mm by 36mm section out of the 6x6 slide so that the area covered was the same as the 2 35mm slides and the D.O.F. was the same in all 3.

 

Therefore the film/sensor size that a lens is used on, does not alter the physical attributes of a lens

 

Of course if I had wanted to fill the 6x6 slide to the same degree as the 35mm slides were, I would have had to have used a 160mm lens on the Hasselblad and that would have reduced D.O.F. compared to the 100mm lenses on the R8, but that was not what was being discussed.

 

Best regards

 

Bruno

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Guy Hi

 

The reason for the differing D.O.F is because you were using 2 different focal lenght lenses, one a 150mm and the other [ in your assumption ] a 90mm which of course would give more D.O.F.

 

 

I have an adaptor that allows me to use my Hasselblad lenses on my R8, and I have tested this in the past when I took a picture centered on a head sculpture with the Hasselblad 100mm lens, and then mounted that lens on my R8 and took the same view, centered on the head sculture with that set up and from exactly the same position on the same tripod. I also puts a Leica 100mm lens on the R8 and when I got the slides back I cut a 24mm by 36mm section out of the 6x6 slide so that the area covered was the same as the 2 35mm slides and the D.O.F. was the same in all 3.

 

Therefore the film/sensor size that a lens is used on, does not alter the physical attributes of a lens

 

Of course if I had wanted to fill the 6x6 slide to the same degree as the 35mm slides were, I would have had to have used a 160mm lens on the Hasselblad and that would have reduced D.O.F. compared to the 100mm lenses on the R8, but that was not what was being discussed.

 

Best regards

 

Bruno

 

bruno, I think you are not reading guy right.. I think his point is that it is much more difficult to produce a wide aperture lens that covers med. format, but if anyone can make it happen it is the folks at leitz..we are all in agreement that a 150 lens is a 150 lens..gives the same d.o.f. no matter what sensor it hits..etc..however different 150s do have different looks..and the out of focus areas will look different.

getting back to his point,..if going from 35mm to a larger format you will be using longer lenses with less dof to match the field of view of the 35mm format..so the smaller maximum apertures of the longer lenses can match the dof of the shorter brighter 35mm lenses.

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Pau

 

Thanks for your post - I guess I never followed what was being suggested by Guy - and the points you make are perfectly understandable.

 

Thanks for the clarification, and of course if that's what Guy meant then I agree fully.

 

Regards

 

Bruno

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All these are just nice words, not more for me!

 

Let Leica first prove their capability to bring the S2 to market with 4 lenses, sell it for a competitiv price in the MF market (although it is far from real MF) and have this system work for 1 or 2 years flawlessly (other than M8 so far :mad: ) and then I start believing what he claims today. :rolleyes:

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This is not a camera that I will be able to afford,

but I am só impressed with the S2 and so glad that Leica is back in the first row again.

Geo

 

They are not back in the first row again, they will be back once they have proven they can deliver. In the field of Pros with pro service and with pro quality!

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All these are just nice words, not more for me!

 

Let Leica first prove their capability to bring the S2 to market with 4 lenses, sell it for a competitiv price in the MF market (although it is far from real MF) and have this system work for 1 or 2 years flawlessly (other than M8 so far :mad: ) and then I start believing what he claims today. :rolleyes:

 

peter, please tell me why it is far from real MF. I think this size sensor and megapixel count is medium digital format.. what would make it "real" for you?

You must have really been burned by Leica at some point to have such cynical views regarding their ability to get this to market...sounds like you are pissed off..like they kidnapped your first-born.. but maybe that is just normal you.

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peter, please tell me why it is far from real MF. I think this size sensor and megapixel count is medium digital format.. what would make it "real" for you?

You must have really been burned by Leica at some point to have such cynical views regarding their ability to get this to market...sounds like you are pissed off..like they kidnapped your first-born.. but maybe that is just normal you.

 

The medium format in the old time is 6X4.5, 6X6, 6X7, 6X8, 6X9, 6X12, 6X17 an can be range finder camera, SLR type, finder camera, so I think S2 can be justify as a medium format camera. And if it is for image quality of prints, it might as well be considered as a large format camera.

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  • 2 months later...

Oh and here is a bit of heresy:

 

The Nikkor 28 mm PC and 35mm PC shift lenses have, I think, enough coverage for the S2 and can be easily adapted due to lack of mechanical linkages.... super wide high quality optics for not much money on the used market... don't know about the Canon 35TS...

 

David

I bet the Angenieux PC lens would satisfy the Leica purist.

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Oh and here is a bit of heresy:

 

The Nikkor 28 mm PC and 35mm PC shift lenses have, I think, enough coverage for the S2 and can be easily adapted due to lack of mechanical linkages.... super wide high quality optics for not much money on the used market... don't know about the Canon 35TS...

 

David

I bet the Angenieux PC lens would satisfy the Leica purist.

 

 

For macro yes- for anything else the register is far too short.

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Oh and here is a bit of heresy:

 

The Nikkor 28 mm PC and 35mm PC shift lenses have, I think, enough coverage for the S2 and can be easily adapted due to lack of mechanical linkages.... super wide high quality optics for not much money on the used market... don't know about the Canon 35TS...

 

David

I bet the Angenieux PC lens would satisfy the Leica purist.

 

Because of the focal plane shutter, I think pretty much any MF lens that can be manually stopped down could be used on the S2 if someone makes the proper adapter. All the old Hassy lenses have this capability (press the depth of field button on the lens) and they are pretty cheap and plentiful. There are also the Hartblei TS and some of the the same glass as Kiev shift lenses.

 

By the way, I saw that this dealer has listed the S2 body for sale at $24,995. What is up with that?

 

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