Mr. Kaufmann on S2 price, production start, R-compability

[RobMac]

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No one seems to have the straight answer on this R adapter issue.

 

Between this and the confusion between Leica and Phase as to what their relationship is re: the S2 (*), I agree, a joint Leica/Phase team needs to promptly clarify matters in a manner that leaves no room for misunderstanding.

 

This type of confusion and contradictory snippets coming out don't do anyone, especially Leica (it's their camera after all) any favors. Give folks the real, coherent info and let them decide what to do - with an accurate set of facts.

 

Damn sweet looking camera I must say.

 

* (Phase says Phase tech inside, yet Leica says all 100% Leica, Phase deal started after S2 completed.

 

Phase indicates exclusive channel, yet (non-Phase) Leica dealers taking pre-orders and Leica execs stating in interviews relationship still nebulous.

 

Leica execs indicating no Leica glass to folks at show for Phase/Mamiya, yet Phase indicating a handful of Leica-based lenses coming soon.)

[redfalo]

I think you have this backwards. Can you put the R lenses on the S2. Not whether you can put the S2 lenses on the R8/9.

 

I was referring to John who suggested it vice versa (with regard to the R10, however). My question to Mr. Kaufmann was: "Do the R lenses fit on the S2?"

 

I suspect the adapter will be to fit the S2 lenses on the R10, not vice-versa. No way an R lens is going to clear the mirror on the S2. (Unless they did a split mirror like the Bronica S series.) Presumably the electrical interface to the R10 lenses will be identical to the S2 lenses.

[zapp]

what a shame!!!!!!!!

you watched the wrong station

[zapp]

I was referring to John who suggested it vice versa (with regard to the R10, however). My question to Mr. Kaufmann was: "Do the R lenses fit on the S2?"

 

Putting S2 lenses on a R10 makes no sense.

Putting R lenses in front of a S2 makes no sense.

Guys, how desperate are you???

 

Put R lenses in front of an R camera.

[zapp]

15000 Euro !

 

 

where do I sign ?

 

A 35 Megapixel medium format back without camera around it costs more. The streamlined design of the whole workflow makes the S2 much more appealing than many medium format backs. This is a bargain 35 MP camera.

[luigi bertolotti]

Putting S2 lenses on a R10 makes no sense.

Putting R lenses in front of a S2 makes no sense.

Guys, how desperate are you???

 

Put R lenses in front of an R camera.

 

Well... I'm not personally interested (not a R user, surely not a future S2 user)... but I think isn't necessary to be desperate to whish such things... a person who owns lenses that have costed him a lot, is reasonable that hopes to continue to use them, even if not in their original configuration, and with certain limitations. As an amateur (ok, different perspective than a pro) I'm not so sure I had bought my M8 without the capability to use my old M lenses (even if I ended up acquiring 3 new lenses in the 12 months after M8 buy... ... but this is a proof of "customer satisfaction" )

[RobMac]

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You may want to look at the massive across-the-board price cuts Hasselblad announced yesterday - up to 40% off. I suspect Phase/Mamiya, Leaf, etc will follow accordingly.

Suffice it to say things are heating up in > 35mm land.

 

(Modified from from LL post, all include back, body and IIRC 80mm lens. Some 12 mos 0% interest and/or 12 mos no payments)

 

> H3DII-50MP 17,995 €

 

> H3DII-60MP 22,995 € (Q1/2009)

 

> H3DII- 31MP 11,995 €

 

> H3DII-39MP 14,990 €

 

> H3DII-39-MS (multi-shot) : 19,995 €

 

 

A 35 Megapixel medium format back without camera around it costs more. The streamlined design of the whole workflow makes the S2 much more appealing than many medium format backs. This is a bargain 35 MP camera.

[luigi bertolotti]

You may want to look at the massive across-the-board price cuts Hasselblad announced yesterday - up to 40% off. I suspect Phase/Mamiya, Leaf, etc will follow accordingly.

Suffice it to say things are heating up in > 35mm land.

 

(Modified from from LL post, all include back, body and IIRC 80mm lens. Some 12 mos 0% interest and/or 12 mos no payments)

 

> H3DII-50MP 17,995 €

 

> H3DII-60MP 22,995 € (Q1/2009)

 

> H3DII- 31MP 11,995 €

 

> H3DII-39MP 14,990 €

 

> H3DII-39-MS (multi-shot) : 19,995 €

 

Definitely, I think they have anted up seeing S2 and listening to Dr. Kaufmann outing about prices... and seem to remember that Hasselblad has been the only brand that Leica has quoted in its official declarations about S2 introduction: I hope for them that CEO decided to speak about prices with serious consciousness... the S2 is far from being available (when will start they to accept orders ?) and speaking officialy of prices 6-9 months before a product is available can be a risky play.... MF market is surely less "hot" than std. DSLRs' one... but competition and marketing attention are anyway existent.

[Mauribix]

Putting S2 lenses on a R10 makes no sense.

Putting R lenses in front of a S2 makes no sense.

Guys, how desperate are you???

 

Put R lenses in front of an R camera.

 

Maybe it makes no sense for you.

 

Did you see the desperate?

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[stevelap]

You may want to look at the massive across-the-board price cuts Hasselblad announced yesterday - up to 40% off. I suspect Phase/Mamiya, Leaf, etc will follow accordingly.

Suffice it to say things are heating up in > 35mm land.

 

(Modified from from LL post, all include back, body and IIRC 80mm lens. Some 12 mos 0% interest and/or 12 mos no payments)

 

> H3DII-50MP 17,995 €

 

> H3DII-60MP 22,995 € (Q1/2009)

 

> H3DII- 31MP 11,995 €

 

> H3DII-39MP 14,990 €

 

> H3DII-39-MS (multi-shot) : 19,995 €

I was just looking at this in another thread. Interesting, and it will give Leica something to aim at price wise. But let's not forget that the S2 has a usp precisely because it's not 'full-size' MF......

 

If Leica manage to bring it to market with the proposed specs or better, I think they stand every chance of making a success of it.

[guywalder]

Definitely, I think they have anted up seeing S2 and listening to Dr. Kaufmann outing about prices....

 

err, no I dont think so.

Nobody would rush out news like that in response to a camera that isnt available for at least a year. If anyone respods to Leica's pricing it will be after official pricing is set, if not a little after the product is actually shipping.... but even then these guys have legacy prduct in the field, Leica dont, so they have even less reason to panic

[RobMac]

I wouldn't link the S2 to Hassy's price cuts - they would have been in the planning well before the S2 news. Hassy is simply trying to narrow the $$ gap between MFDB and the plunging prices of high-end DSLRs - and shake up it's EXISTING competitors.

 

Yes, Kaufmann jabbed at Hassy's DAC, etc with their lens comments - all's fair in love, war and business.

 

I like the S2 and love Leica glass, but some objectivity wouldn't hurt. The challenges facing the S2 are immense. While I hope they pull it off, they can't be taken lightly.

 

Leica is only a competitor in > 35mm when it has a camera and glass selling. It is only a viable competitor to most MFDB pros when it has proven to be reliable, robust and free of ANY M8-esque teething problems.

 

It also has to have a Service & Support structure that resembles what now exists in MFDB Land - turn around in days, over-nighted loaner gear, etc etc.

 

Then there is the competition that is likely forthcoming - CaNikon moving into > 35m.

 

There is only so much you can do with micro-lenses, gapless tech, low-current amplifiers, etc., re: ISO performance on uber-dense sensors before you have to up the sensor size to give yourself more headroom. Leica, unlike CaNikon wasn't required to pour $$$ into an existing DSLR and lens line, so it could (wisely) focus all it's efforts on developing the first entrant in what is an upcoming market (35mm < x < typical MF). In that regard, Sony may have screwed-up it's entry into the pro market by not doing likewise.

 

Yes, a new format will be a major PITA with new lens lines, etc, and no, I have no idea how Canon will clean up it's lens QC and performance to do justice to a 40MP possibly AA-less 30x48 sensor (pick a size), and yes Canon glass sucks (for most part) vs. Leica, but they (and Nikon) OWN the market that future >35mm/MF users will come from.

 

ISO issues aside, the DSLR heavyweights also NEED to have a product line that will keep pros in their high-end bodies as MF prices drop. They need to have a premium pro DSLR line with a price/performance curve that can justify itself in the midst of ongoing MFDB price plunges.

 

I can see the marketing material now: $8-10K or so for 30x48mm (pick a size..), 35-40MP, clean to ISO 3200, fast multi-point AF, weather sealed, (no AA filter??????), lenses at a small premium to existing L/G units, LV, 1080P video (argh), maybe older lenses with adapters in cropped/masked mode, etc, etc.

 

I wouldn't be at all surprise if Canon (to name one) makes > 35mm sensors (possibly/hopefully sans AA filters) as the hallmark of the 1 series.

 

They have already announced a revamp of their CPS structure to create three tiers of service for faster turn-around, allow for over-nighted loaner gear, etc - in short what would be needed to service the MFDB customer - or someone thinking of moving in that direction.

 

While everyone is amped as hell over the S2 (and they should be) and Leica deserves kudos for being first into the 'tweener' sensor market with what looks a very nice product, business history has proven time and time again that being first doesn't assure one of anything. Execution is ALL that matters.

[LUF Admin]

Interesting as that David Farkas was told by Leica execs during S2 hands-on that-NO R adapter (was a miscommunication). Sounds like a message needs to be straightened out.

 

No one seems to have the straight answer on this R adapter issue.

 

Ok, I have the straight answer (sorry, bad news).

 

I asked Maike Harberts and Stephan Schulz, both responsible for the LEICA S2 and the clear answer was: No, there will be no adapter to use R lenses on a LEICA S2.

 

The reasons:

- R lenses are not able to make a picture big enough for the chip

- The flange back (right word?) of the LEICA S2 is too big

 

In order to fix both issues you's need a optical solution that would reduce quality and woudl cost a lot of money.

 

Andreas (just back from the photokina for today)

[RobMac]

Finally. Thank you. The reasoning makes sense as well.

 

Adapters with elements (given the registration distance differences) would be both uber-costly, would degrade IQ and would have be somewhat customized to the lenses in question - can't seem the same adapter working well for both the say the 35-70/4 and the 180/2 APO.

 

Unfortunately because the S lenses lack aperture rings, using any of them on a DMR/Canon, etc with an adapter like many of us do with Hassy and Mamiya glass is also out of the question.

[R10dreamer]

Makes sense to me also. The S2 is a different niche than the R camera. What bugs me is that R users are like the red-headed stepchild to Leica.

[RobMac]

You certainly know where the R&D has gone since the death of the DMR...

[martinb]

I just recently spoke to a well known british Leica dealer regarding an order and we also spoke a bit about the S2.

They said the price was going to be 7500 GBP (may have been 6500 GBP, can't remember exactly). If that was with or without tax I can't say for sure..

If this is true this is very good news! I'm guessing a price point of around 10 000 euros incl. vat..

[stevelap]

I just recently spoke to a well known british Leica dealer regarding an order and we also spoke a bit about the S2.

They said the price was going to be 7500 GBP (may have been 6500 GBP, can't remember exactly). If that was with or without tax I can't say for sure..

If this is true this is very good news! I'm guessing a price point of around 10 000 euros incl. vat..

If true, extremely good news indeed. But that would put it quite a bit lower than the €15000 ballpark figure being discussed at photokina.

Fingers crossed, but there's quite a while to go before it hits the streets yet....

[martinb]

Steve,

I think their strategy is to give potential future customers a happy surprise. Remember, Kauffman says 10-15 000 euros so 10 000 euros isn't unlikely at all, especially after talking to this dealer..

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Hallo,

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[sdai]

The landscape of digital camera markets may very well change again by the time Leica is ready to ship the camera, remember how many times have they changed the price for a DMR?