Digital Reflex S2 - please post all thoughts here...

[Guest guy_mancuso]

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I posted this on the M8 thread but i think it needs to be repeated here.

 

 

Well the S system does bring leica to a new level for pro's and hobbyist that went to jump up. Been getting bits and pieces all day but so far i like what i am reading. The big part that actually got me out of my seat was the alliance with Phase One. This part was just downright freaking brilliant on all counts. Folks need to know how experienced they truly are in MF digital circles. The are considered one of the absolute best in this area . Between Firmware , software and there MF sensor technology with Kodak is beyond approach. Leica teaming up with them is extremely smart and if they have Phase One dealers handle the distribution of it even better. There service and repair service is amazingly good. I have a Phase body and back today and i am extremely impressed in this area alone. This has been as we know Leica's area of disappointment is service with the M8 and if they hand this off to Phase one than it is again a great idea to team with them. Today i can get a back by next morning at 10 am. if the stuff hits the fan , so this area being very important to Pro's can be very helpfull. The fact it has leaf shutters lenses and focal shutter camera like the Phase One systems makes it again a nice combo for wedding, fashion and commercial shooters. What needs to come out of this for the MF shooter of today like myself is the increase in speed of the camera itself. Right now I am at 1.5 seconds before i can hit the next frame.

 

The next area of concern today is shutter lag. Classic example shooting golf the other day i had to shoot at the start of the downswing to get the contact shot. This needs improvement. Other area's is ISO speed we need a clean ISO 1600 and I mean clean. Larger 3 inch display is also needed. If this leica S system can go after these area's of MF shooters concerns in this system than they are really doing us a large favor and bringing a real asset to our world. This is not about more MPX , my 22 mpx back will blow almost anything away. That is not the concern but the functionality that we lost going from DSLR to MF, we need to bring that speed into our area back. Also huge plus here is the fact they will have some T/S lenses as well as leaf lenses this also is a area that is lacking in MF. Now this is considered a bridge camera between DSLR and medium format but if the sped and i will repeat this again if the speed of this camera is reasonable close to the DSLR than watch these fly off the shelf.

 

I do say that with reservation though. leica needs to deliver a sound product , sorry no bullshit this time, your on my dollar and it needs to produce all the time. I say that with love in my heart for Leica but also with a strong you better get it right attitude. This is a lot of money to toss around and no one is going to play with my money if i go this direction. My Phase one back today is a freaking tank , they even run cars over it. If you want folks to jump up than they need to do it right and also price it correctly. This part is going to be very critical to it's success maybe more than any of there products. You have Sinar, Phase , Hassy and leaf out there already knocking prices down to drive business and revenue.

 

if I sound a little critical than your right this is expensive and the move up in this area is not to be taken lightly by any means. if Leica wants to get into this area. My points are something that should be heard loudly there not just coming from me but the MF market and shooters. If they deliver the speed and the quality of product. Than it should be a success in many ways.

 

I am still waiting like many for more details but so far i think this is a great thing for Leica be it you need it or not the technology of the S will lead to a trickle down effect to other Leica systems.

__________________

[John Thawley]

This is a warning:

 

Posters such as some above are stepping out of line with respect to Forum rules and dignity with restpect to other people. Observe Forum and personal courtesy or risk posts being deleted and banning of offenders. This is not negotiable.

 

When my legitimate work gets interrupted by such thoughtless and stupid behaviour I am inclined to "kick where I see a head".

 

Now go back to dissecting Photokina, or even takes pictures for a change and let courtesy rein and me work.

 

Thank you.

[sdai]

Just keep in mind Canon right now has a 50mp waiting in the wings , and what will they have by the time thje S2 is finallyr eleased .

 

You won't see the 50MP Canon anytime soon, Peter. If we're on the same page, the sensor you mentioned about is a APS-H format sensor which means if it is cut into 35mm full format, the camera will sport 84.5MP. It can't happen overnight.

[sdai]

I am still waiting like many for more details but so far i think this is a great thing for Leica be it you need it or not the technology of the S will lead to a trickle down effect to other Leica systems.

 

I've only read the last paragraph because your long post really makes my head spinning, Guy. LOL

 

Regarding the trickle down effect, they could build the R10 right now given that fact that S2s are working cameras already.

 

Why would they postpone it then?

 

I guess that they're still working on the AF system. Well, people could easily forgive Leica for the noise at high ISO but they won't consider it if an auto focus DSLR only has ONE center AF point.

[AlanG]

Without seeing a spec sheet, a thorough review and sample pictures, I certainly won't pass judgment on it pro or con. Quite an achievement for Leica and/or whomever built it with them. The camera is set to be released next summer. It is hard to predict what else will be in the market at that point. There is a lot of established competition in the MF segment of the marketplace, which is pretty small too. So we will have to see if the usability and performance of the camera is appealing enough to make up for the lack of a removable back.

 

From looking at the posted photos, it is hard for me to picture how one could efficiently control this camera using so few knobs and buttons. But I don't know what features it has so it is hard to say what needs to be controlled. (Assuming standard functions such as, various metering patterns, ISO, bracketing, AF/MF, exposure overide, etc.)

 

I have a few observations of the MF manufacturers that may indicate that consolidation is happening:

 

Kodak and Dalsa make MF sensors

Kodak used to make MF backs.

Kodak bought Leaf a couple of years ago but Leaf still uses Dalsa chips.

Hasselblad and Imacon merged and had Fuji make them a closed digital MF camera.

 

Rollei, Sinar, and Leaf teamed up to make a fairly open camera system that uses existing Rollei lenses and various digital backs. The Rollei lenses and the Leaf backs (Sinar too?) can also be used on the Linhof Techno and probably on other cameras via the Rollei electronic lens adapter and controller. So this is a fairly open system.

 

Phase One is rebadging Mamiya cameras and lenses with its Phase One backs. (Hartblei lenses too.)

 

Phase One has a deal with Microsoft.

Mamiya has its own digital backs and cameras.

Jenoptik, the parent company of Sinar, has a deal with Leica.

 

Leica gets sensors from Kodak and processsors from Fujitsu. Who knows where they get AF technology and design and construction help if needed. I have no idea how much of this Leica can do on its own. But since Hassy/Imacon turned to Fuji, I wonder how Leica had the resources to design and manufacture the camera and an entirely new line of 9 AF medium format lenses from scratch. Heck, Leica never even made a TS lens for the R, relying on Schneider for PC lenses. Yet suddently they have what looks like a great design for a 30mm TSE (24mm equiv on 24x36 format.) Could it be that they have Asian or German partners to help keep this "somewhat" affordable? (Just pure speculation on my part.)

 

Well it says on David Farkas' blog that, "The S2 was developed 100% in-house. Leica is very proud of this. The hardware engineering to the optics to the firmware was all done in Germany."

 

Leica now has a sales/marketing and support deal with Phase One.

 

Isn't this kind of curious?

[PeterP]

You won't see the 50MP Canon anytime soon, Peter. If we're on the same page, the sensor you mentioned about is a APS-H format sensor which means if it is cut into 35mm full format, the camera will sport 84.5MP. It can't happen overnight.

 

Yes but neither will Leica's proposed S2 and R10 - both are slated for the future. Sorry to say technology moves much much faster than Leica. Sufficient to say that I will have my next 1DmarkX in my hand long before either is released.

I shoot both Leica and Canon , impressed by Canon and underwhelmed by Leica as a company . I do wish they would get their act together . Unless their act is catering to the very well off camera aficionados - in which case they are already there.

 

PeterP

[Sandokan]

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My tuppence-ha-penny.

 

Balance is all wrong - the red dot to the right outweighs the shutter release in silver to the left and just looks wrong

 

If you want simple, use old fashioned things people understand, like buttons and dials and an aperture ring.

 

Does the prism head come off for a waist level finder? That is what I love about my MF systems.

 

Ergonomics - someone said about Can and Nik using hundreds of mock up models and lots of people testing them, in which case why do most of their cameras feel uncomfortable in my hand? I got a Leica because I could use it without too many days with a manual and on picking it up, it may have been very heavy but it just felt RIGHT. I am sure the S2 will too.

 

Anyway, the S2 is not aimed at me but at professionals and I am sure it has everything for them. From what I understand of the specs, it should give a couple of fps like a DSLR and sit in the hand like one but have the image quality of a DMF. I just hope that Leica can get it on the shelves in good time and quantity to satisfy demand and make a good profit. It is truly a step outside of the box and deserves success.

 

Ravi

[mooky]

I think it's very obvious the S2 is not proposed - it is here. So many people compare companies and frankly, it's irrelevant in most cases. Canon makes cameras that are short in life span and quick to market - it's a volume game for Canon when compared to Leica.

 

But it's not the same quality game - no disrespect intended - Leica was born with a different ideal, and a different philosophy. Through the last series of owners they have stumbled and bumbled new technologies and new markets. That has changed.

 

The R10 will come - new M's will come - no, it's not soon enough for some. Remember, Kaufmann has owned the company for less than 3 years - Leica is back. The S2, by it's early indicators is a fine piece of kit and the new Leica deserves our patience and support. At least, I'll gladly give it mine.

[andybarton]

Without seeing a spec sheet, a thorough review and sample pictures, I certainly won't pass judgment on it pro or con. Quite an achievement for Leica and/or whomever built it with them.

 

AFAIK, this is 100% Leica.

[john_f]

Congratulations to Dr Andreas Kaufmann for having the vision and courage to go ahead with the Afrika project. And this is just the beginning .... The technology from the S2 will be used in the upcoming R10 - and possibly another R camera.

 

Some interesting news regarding the specs of the S2: the French magazine Chasseur d'Images has set up a a separate website for Photokina (La rédac à Cologne) and is reporting that the back 3 inch screen is using OLED (organic LED) technology! I am also guessing that it might be a touch screen - to be confirmed.

 

It also mentions some of the other lenses in the new S system:

a 100 mm (speed?), an Apo-Macro 120mm f2.5, a 180mm CS, a 24mm f/2,8 Asph, the already mentioned TS lens, and a 350mm f/3,5 tele lens.

 

The S2 promises to be very competitive with the pro-level Hassy H3D 39. Let's not forget - this camera will be aimed at the pro market (hence the super high price). It will be very interesting to see how the Fuji designed H3D (with its Fuji designed lenses) compare with this new "designed-in-Solms" Leica camera and lenses. Hasselblad is about to get a run for its money!

 

I can't wait to see what Leica has in store for the R10 - the "other" Leica DSLR for the rest of us ...

 

Cheers,

 

John F.

 

Ref for Leica articles on CDI:

Les grandes INFOS

Leica S-System: une vraie petite bombe! | Reflex | CI c'est fou!

[john_f]

BTW - a quick calculations from the S2's megapixel count (37,5 Mp) would indicate that the max resolution of the S2 should be 5000 x 7000 pixels and that therefore the pixel pitch of its Kodak designed sensor is exactly 6,0 microns. Couple this generous size pixel/photodiode to the S2's Fuji designed DSP and we can expect superlative image quality!

 

If we apply all this to a potential full-frame 24x36mm R10 using this same sensor technology, the R10 should clock at exactly 24 Mpixels (4000 x 6000). We should know more in a day or two.

 

These are exciting times to be a Leica enthusiast !

[adan]

Best comment I've seen so far is over at dpreview:

"So when's the Panasonic version coming out?"

 

It is true that there are no Summicrons in this system so far - but there are a LOT of Elmarit f/2.8 and Summarit f/2.5 designations. That 350 f/3.5 revives the Tele-Elmar name.

 

Lot of halo effect once the R10 shows up - the hoi-polloi can buy one and pretend they've got an S2. Perhaps even there will be an adpater to use that 350 on the R10?

 

BTW - The H-series Hasselblads are basically Fuij boxes and lenses - and Fuji is ALSO designing the DSP for the Leica.....Wha..?

[zapp]

I assume the Summarit 2.5/75 is the standard lens of the new system, why can't they make it even faster? optics is always Leica's stronghold, Contax has a 2/80 for a real 645.

The Contax 645 is a film camera. The Leica S2 is a digital camera and you will not find a medium format lens designed for digital use that is faster. This camera is not designed for toy lenses or old film offspring, but as we should assume for professional lenses. Check out the latest Rodenstick and Schneider designs to see what kind of f stops are possible for medium format backs/cameras.

[imported_reinierv]

Now Leica supports 4 exchangeable lens systems

 

-S2

-R

-D

-M

 

Which they all have to support and promote. No other company in the business is doing this. Imo It is very likely that in the near future (1-2 years) they will strike (or merge) one or two because this will in the end be way too expensive for them. Canon, Nikon etc all have a one mount that will take all lenses and users buy either the amature, the semi-pro or the pro bodies. Leica now has the "low-end" D system, the high-end S2 and an R systems of which the claim there is still a future and in that case would be the mid-end. All with own mount and lenses. That is certainly not a good way to be on.

 

Mamyia and H'blad will not worry too much I guess, they have an large installed base of which the back can be exchanged. Any studio is more likely to invest in that than in a new system with new lenses. And a none exchangable sensor.

 

I think mainly the wedding photographers will be interrested due to the weather sealing and easy of reflex-like system, so maybe the S2 could be positioned like the pentax 6x7 used to be. If that market is still large enough...we'll see

 

At least Leica is able to put weathersealing in a 20Keuro camera, in 4K they can't do it

[wlaidlaw]

Has anyone seen a full list of the S lenses yet? I have only seen details of 3 or 4 out of the 9.

 

Wilson

[nugat]

There is an S1 at ebay.

Only 200 ever made.

So far no takers for this one, so could be had for pennies.

 

Scan High Spee Digital Camera Leica S1 Alpha Set - eBay (item 350099042286 end time Sep-23-08 02:40:09 PDT)

[adan]

"Now Leica supports 4 exchangeable lenses systems"

 

THREE - D is DEAD the instant they can clear the last body out of the warehouse.

 

Wilson - cobbled together out of several lists, each partial. Figure the crop factor to be 0.8x in calculating "equivalences". (e.g. 24mm x .8 = "19.2"mm in 35mm terms)

 

24mm Elmarit, 35 Elmarit, T/S lens in the 35mm range (speed unknown), 350 f/3.5 Tele-Elmar, 180mm(speed?), 120 Elmarit Makro, 100 Elmarit. I have seen both Summarit 75 and Elmarit 70mm lenses illustrated - that may be just changes in the concept over time - or perhaps there will be a "discount" or "kit" Summarit (RIGHT!)

 

Leica website is still sort of under construction in the "S" area - no pdfs of the whole system or the lens range. Guess that will fill in over time.

[luigi bertolotti]

Maybe it's all about pride, folks.

 

With a flagship like this, Leica could place themselves above Canon, Nikon et al, maintain its brand image and high ground in marketing/pricing. Perhaps they'll come back with a R with less pixels, lower specification when compared to their Japanese peers.

 

They know it won't sell a lot but it's NOT important.

 

Just my guess though ... and trying to stay upbeat!

 

Ehm... I hope they anyway have plans to SELL it... a lot or not a lot, the product HAS been developed... now it comes to MANUFACTURE and SELL it.

[wlaidlaw]

There is an S1 at ebay.

Only 200 ever made.

So far no takers for this one, so could be had for pennies.

 

Scan High Spee Digital Camera Leica S1 Alpha Set - eBay (item 350099042286 end time Sep-23-08 02:40:09 PDT)

 

IF it is working properly, that would be a great buy for a museum/large gallery. That is the only place I have ever seen one being used (Uffizi), with UV lighting, I assume to show up later additions/repairs to a painting. I saw they have one in a display cabinet at Solms. I wonder if they can still service or repair them.

 

Wilson

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[luigi bertolotti]

Has anyone seen a full list of the S lenses yet? I have only seen details of 3 or 4 out of the 9.

 

Wilson

 

As a lens-lover, me too have been intrigued by this detail... they speak clearly of 9, but some of them are at all unrevealed... one of the many disclosures that, I think, they prefer to give as time goes on... (PMA ?), just to keep high the attention and not "throwing all the bullets" in one shot: as I said many times, they've probably really became marketing-wise.