stunsworth Posted October 1, 2006 Share #21 Posted October 1, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) You know 4 pros who use Leicas, I've known at least a couple of dozen amateurs who have used M6/7s, Off the top of my head I can think of about half a dozen pros I've know who used Ms. As I say in my experience the majority of M users are amateurs. I genuinly think you are mistaken to claim that most M users are pros. Are you really saying that most M buyers over the last say 15 years have been professionals or am I misunderstanding what you are saying? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 1, 2006 Posted October 1, 2006 Hi stunsworth, Take a look here Steven Lee joins Leica. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
ddp Posted October 1, 2006 Share #22 Posted October 1, 2006 IMHO, I think the M8 will have a trickle down effect on the rest of the Leica digital lineup. It is generating quite a bit of publicity and buzz...there are many soccer moms out there using Canon Rebels, Nikon D50's and higher up the line. Lot's of parents shooting their kids sports are competitive in more ways than one - and will often play the one-upsmanship game of who has the better toys. Cars, houses, watches, cameras - so why not go after them. I don't think they'll be buying M8's - but why not the new V-Lux, Digilux and D-Lux lines? These are consumers that are aware of the high end - and like to flaunt it at times. Think of the high end kitchen - Viking, Wolf, Sub - Zero. How many of these soccer moms use their kitchens to their capability? I know enough people in this demographic that are impressed by the word "Zeiss" on a Sony digital...and I get asked about it often enough. Why not Leica? They won't spend the $$$$ on a Canon 5D, or a Nikon D2X - but they will do a D200 or 30D. And then post their images to show off to everyone else just how great their new camera is...especially when dad goes out and buys an 80-400 VR lens....justification for expenditure. Whether they will flock to Leica as another means for suburban bragging rights, who knows. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lambroving Posted October 1, 2006 Share #23 Posted October 1, 2006 Steve, As I said, I know about 20 pros, four of whom are clients of mine. Most own and still use Leicas and love them, but Leicas have not been always been of much use, given the pro workflow (boy, do I hate that word) for the last several years. Never gave it much thought, but I'd expect that a largish proportion of M7 users are pros while the majority of MP sales are to amateurs. Certainly the majority of M sales in the last 15 years can't be to pros or the company would be out of business! Of course, there are pros and there are pros. Those who churn out weddings with a big flash are not much interested in Leica. Never were. Those who are into image quality and can see big differences and fall in love with the look are those who will use Leica. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicanewbie Posted October 1, 2006 Share #24 Posted October 1, 2006 One of the problems with the retail channel as I see it, is that Leica and Panasonic basically make the same camera ( excluding the M8 ). Leica will have a tough time using traditional channels / resellers to increase sales of the DLux, CLux and VLux cameras, if those same retailers will plunk them alongside their less-expensive Panasonic counterparts. So that approach will not be successful. I can see them setting up Apple-like stores in major cities ( like their store in Ginza ). With that approach they can tell the story, sell the value, of the Leica brand. That will get them their sales of M8s, and could spur sales of the lower-end cameras. As for the existing channel, you've got to have a network of specialists supporting the product. Those are a dying breed in most cities, because they make their money from retail sales, accessories and film processing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsh Posted October 1, 2006 Share #25 Posted October 1, 2006 Steven Lee will be good for Leica. The company must provide products to meet a variety of price points. Leica can cater to the pro, to the well to do and to the average joe or Mom and not endanger its reputation. I choose to use Leica because of the superlative optics and because I can afford it. If I could not afford Leica, I believe my images would still be great, I just would not have my tool of choice. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikej Posted October 1, 2006 Share #26 Posted October 1, 2006 Regarding the Apple store example, Apple has the luxury (somehow) of maintaining product pricing across the board (within a country) regardless of the sales channel. If Leica were to do this, they would have to decide whether to sell at MSRP or closer to MAP as the current dealers do. I can't imagine Leica-only stores surviving at MSRP unless they forced their current distribution system to MSRP also. Cheers, Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted October 1, 2006 Share #27 Posted October 1, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) Never gave it much thought, but I'd expect that a largish proportion of M7 users are pros while the majority of MP sales are to amateurs. Sorry, William, you need to back this kind of claim up, IMHO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lambroving Posted October 1, 2006 Share #28 Posted October 1, 2006 Sorry, William, you need to back this kind of claim up, IMHO. Read more slowly, Andy. It's not a claim but my impression from the few M7 users here and the pros here and the pros I know. Besides the pros here, I can count the M7 users who post pictures on one hand. The M7 is not particularly a thing of beauty, but it's fast and usually nails the exposure. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted October 1, 2006 Share #29 Posted October 1, 2006 So a "largish proportion" of M7 users were pros -which implies than most M7 users are amateurs, whereas " The M8 is a pro camera designed for M-using pros". I can't remember seeing anything from Leica stating that they have decided to disregard the amateur/semi-pro market regarding the M8. I have the feeling that you are stating your opinions as fact! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lambroving Posted October 1, 2006 Share #30 Posted October 1, 2006 Steve, We have definitely hit a language barrier here. Most of the M7 users I know are pros while most of the new amateurs here seem instantly attracted to the MP and buy them rather than the electronic tool. THAT is my impression. They don't know what they are missing. Ask Wilfredo. Next... As for the M8, it is a tool for pros as per Stefan Daniels. I'm sure they'd be more than happy to sell to every amateur who'd buy one, but the fact remains that it was designed to meet the demands of pros who are M-users. THAT you will also find in the published literature. M-using pros I know who have used it like it well enough to lay out the hard-earned cash. More info when they are allowed to tell you and possibly show you. Only missed playing with one myself by a few days, but I'm assured it feels and handles like an M. Not in the market myself unless lots of things change radically. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted October 1, 2006 Share #31 Posted October 1, 2006 Fair enough William, my experience is totally at odds with yours. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lambroving Posted October 1, 2006 Share #32 Posted October 1, 2006 Fair enough William, my experience is totally at odds with yours. What ELSE is new! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
spylaw4 Posted October 1, 2006 Share #33 Posted October 1, 2006 Milan hit it on the head with the Apple store model. This was what I had in mind when I mentioned the two-tier model. Apple has major outlets in larger cities and smaller outlets in smaller cities and large shopping malls. They sell at Apple's prices, and it doesn't seem to affect sales volume. This is what Leica should be aiming at. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob_x2004 Posted October 1, 2006 Share #34 Posted October 1, 2006 If I knew twenty pro's, I'd be broke. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stnami Posted October 2, 2006 Share #35 Posted October 2, 2006 Most people who are photographers for their bread and butter are not too wealthy ( sure some are but not the majority) they use the camera makes them money (Cannon and Nikon). Unfotunately for Leica their products are not the best tool for general professional use thus Leica loses a large sector of this market. Leica's survival is due to other products other than the M series which is their advertising flagship and engineering know how show pony, which is a very good product to boot. In small markets like Asustralia most stores that do sell Leica carry minimum stock, have a M for display..... so it is please wait and we will get it in for you. They really do not have an option due to the low sales numbers, but that is quite acceptable to most people William you should get out more and see how the majority of photographers live Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gabek Posted October 2, 2006 Share #36 Posted October 2, 2006 As for the existing channel, you've got to have a network of specialists supporting the product. Those are a dying breed in most cities, because they make their money from retail sales, accessories and film processing. The impact of chain discount stores has reduced the number of camera specialty stores, which can’t match their broad offering of products and discounted prices. I don’t think there is any question that Leica has severely limited their number of stocking dealers (at least, in the US) with onerous inventory requirements, given the slower pace at which they sell when compared to lesser, mainstream products. Given his background with Best Buy and IBM, two companies very familiar with driving supply-side and retail marketing, Lee may be just the ticket. There are any number of ways Leica can stimulate their salesand create an expanded base of stocking dealers: they could formulate and commit to an investment of their own along with their dealer network. Given the range of cameras, bodies, lenses and accessories, even the $40,000 barrier to entry (mentioned elsewhere in this thread) would not give a wide representation of product. I believe Leica would have to offer a plan to retailers that minimizes financial outlay by not tying up the stores’ cash reserves, possibly like the “floor plan” arrangement US car makers have done for years with their dealers (either paying the monthly interest on the dealers’ cost of inventory or, in some cases, underwriting the cost of the inventory itself). At the very least, this assures a fair representation of product in front of the consuming public. As an example, if a dealer was required to pay for one of each of Leica’s items to put in the hands of their customers as demo’s, Leica could offer some sort of assistance (delayed or deferred payment, as an example) for an additional piece of each, so the dealer would have one to show and one to sell. Leica could formulate a system by which a dealer would be instantly replenished after the sale of each of the products. This keeps the dealer investment to a minimum, while assuring they have the full range to offer and a re-supply channel that protects against lost sales on popular items. It allows dealers to show the entire range, including items that might be considered “fringe” in terms of their potential for sales. Because this might eventually be prohibitively costly to Leica, they could formulate a plan that would ultimately require the dealer to own 100% of their own inventory after a period of time or the sale of a certain number of units. Leica might further develop a dealer training program so each retailer would have at least one specialist, well educated by Leica and with the knowledge and enthusiasm to properly present their products to the camera-buying public. The store might even offer classes led by their Leica specialist tied in with special promotions on specific products. I believe it is a good strategy to offer a more affordable lineup of cameras adapted from the Panasonic range that can introduce consumers to Leica quality and the fun and cachet of ownership, hoping that as they grow into photography, consumers will move up-market to their elite products. Gabe Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted October 2, 2006 Share #37 Posted October 2, 2006 Read more slowly, Andy. It's not a claim but my impression from the few M7 users here and the pros here and the pros I know. Reading as slowly as I can , it seems to me that, in your inimitable style, you were offering conjecture as fact in the originally quoted post, William. This is something that you readily accuse others of doing. I can't see any reason why an amateur would necessarily prefer an MP over an M7. It would be interesting to find out some real facts on the market for each model, rather than speculate. Do Leica publish this information? (I doubt it) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted October 2, 2006 Share #38 Posted October 2, 2006 I thought Leica was dead. When I read the interview to Coenen in december of 2004 I was frozed. Then I thought: be ready to assist a funeral. In fact, a few months later Leica was in the most difficult situation of their history. Suddently, however, a fload of activity and initiatives has emerged. Thanks to Dr. Spichtig, several young managers at Leica and the new owners. Many, many thinks have changed. Leica is moving, and very fast. They know the extre danger of bankruptcy from which they escaped in extremis. They cannot support another year with losses. I am optimist now. The M8 is not the unique bullet (it is a great bullet!). They are working in the R10, new 4/3 products, medium format market (?), distribution (on-line shops in Europe, USA and Japan "a la Apple"?)... New marketing advice will be welcomed... Spichtig decides what to do or not to do, but Lee will bring interesting ideas and perspectives. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael-IIIf Posted October 2, 2006 Author Share #39 Posted October 2, 2006 I thought Leica was dead. When I read the interview to Coenen in december of 2004 I was frozed. Then I thought: be ready to assist a funeral. Being an Apple user, a Ducati rider, and an Alfa Romeo driver has long ago taught me not to worry about predictions of the death of a brand. Long live Leica. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lambroving Posted October 2, 2006 Share #40 Posted October 2, 2006 Reading as slowly as I can , it seems to me that, in your inimitable style, you were offering conjecture as fact in the originally quoted post, William. This is something that you readily accuse others of doing. I can't see any reason why an amateur would necessarily prefer an MP over an M7. It would be interesting to find out some real facts on the market for each model, rather than speculate. Do Leica publish this information? (I doubt it) Bizarre... "I'd expect" over here indicates an educated guess. We are definitely NOT speaking the same language... As to a newbie or amateur picking a retro-looking Leica over a functional, electronic one, I'd GUESS "reason" has little to do with it. Ask Wilfredo whom, I seem to remember, took this journey. (BTW, Leica was shocked that the MP outsold the M7 almost 2:1 after it was released.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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