ErikFive Posted September 16, 2008 Share #21 Posted September 16, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) H3D31 and the new integrated Sinar come in at 9500 GBP + vat given that they are established, trusted players already in this field... any Leica pro MF kit (with one starter lens) will need to come in significantly cheaper than that. If it any more than this then I really will be splitting my sides with laughter. The pricing of digital equipment, especially of the large sensor variety, seems to have turned a big corner this year and my guess is that once we know the full nikon & canon news at Photokina, this idea will be consolidated further. Leica pricing seems to have turned a corner too... but strangely in the wrong direction ! Im thinking the same about the Hassy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 16, 2008 Posted September 16, 2008 Hi ErikFive, Take a look here code name AFRika. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Overgaard Posted September 16, 2008 Share #22 Posted September 16, 2008 Phase One also just started a special on the P25+ (with camera and 80mm lens) in the same range as H3HD31 camera and 80mm lens special. However, there's different classes and I have a feeling Leica is aiming for the top, and that means 40-60 MP and a 25.000+ € price range. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
like_no_other Posted September 16, 2008 Share #23 Posted September 16, 2008 Phase One also just started a special on the P25+ (with camera and 80mm lens) in the same range as H3HD31 camera and 80mm lens special. However, there's different classes and I have a feeling Leica is aiming for the top, and that means 40-60 MP and a 25.000+ € price range. What do you think about the realisation form of this. Would it be better to offer this in an integrated body or a modular solution, e.g. a digital back? From Leica's perspective, not from the customers perspective. (ease of built, time to market, profit) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackal Posted September 16, 2008 Share #24 Posted September 16, 2008 Im thinking the same about the Hassy. what do you mean Erik ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackal Posted September 16, 2008 Share #25 Posted September 16, 2008 Phase One also just started a special on the P25+ (with camera and 80mm lens) in the same range as H3HD31 camera and 80mm lens special. However, there's different classes and I have a feeling Leica is aiming for the top, and that means 40-60 MP and a 25.000+ € price range. 40mp isnt that much different to 31 let's see the more expensive it is, the more of an investment it is if i was in the market for a 50mp camera personally I would base 90% of my decision on product backup, longevity and grounding in the current marketplace after Hassleblad, sinar and leaf... at least initailly until proven as a product beyond any doubt, Leica would be trailing behind in last place BUT, as a cheaper MF digital camera (say 6-7k GBP + vat) to rival the H3D's of this world then its worth taking a punt. The Nikon rumours seem to suggest a similar strategy to this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overgaard Posted September 17, 2008 Share #26 Posted September 17, 2008 What do you think about the realisation form of this. Would it be better to offer this in an integrated body or a modular solution, e.g. a digital back? From Leica's perspective, not from the customers perspective. (ease of built, time to market, profit) I don't like the idea behind Sinar for example, for my use. I think I like a camera that works as an integrated camera, but with possibility for upgrading parts of it. A bit like Hasselblad. But it's really a lot of speculations. On one hand I would hope Leica have developed THE superior camera, bigger, better, faster than any other, because that was in the past, and should be their position in the camera market. On the other hand I wouldn't buy a super-expensive system. Fact is I can do great magazine full-page shots even with the Digilux 2 because I manage the light and color and photoshopping so that it appear as it it was a Hasselblad it was done with. But I also like that extra touch of say the DMR. I guess my problem is I do so many different shooting that I require several types of cameras. I prefer small, simple systems, but like the extra quality of huge cameras! Problem is, I feel, that there exist no ideal system at the moment. It's either dull Canon or (less dull) Nikon, slow Leica DMR, heavy Hasselblad, studio Sinar, near-area slowhand M8.2... And even more of a problem is that I insist that a system shall not dictate my workflow or the type of photos I take (as for example the M8.2 allows you to shoot in places and ways the Canon Mark III could never work because of size and sound) And with the different limitations of all system, that is what they do. The big Canon make you an intrusive photographer, the M8.2 make it impossible to get close enought by tele, the DMR make it impossible to focus fast enough, etc But I was thinking, I have no idea if Hasselblad is just doing 50 MP for show and all they sell is 21 MP (or now 30 MP on special price offer). It might be that only very few actually buy the real expensive systems. At least, those guys I know who bought Hasselblad, bought 'only' 21 MP because they saw no difference in IQ between 40 and 20 MP, just size. But all in all I fear/hope that Leica has made a motherfucker of a system that is so much on the forefront it will simply be considered THE no 1 system on the planet. As when they did the S1 75 megapixel camera 12 years (!) ago. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulmoore Posted September 17, 2008 Share #27 Posted September 17, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) my hopes for this camera is a platform/system camera..based on leica optics, a r9type.. fast shutter and a big bright viewfinder/prism to see through the lenses add to this the ability have a removable, upgradable sinar/jenopik back.. now that would be nice.. maybe 3 or 4 new af zooms.. that would be some multifunctional camera system.. the future is not in a traditionally shaped slr bodies ala the current dslr offerings.. this would be a smart move for them..can't wait to hear their plans. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted September 17, 2008 Share #28 Posted September 17, 2008 ...the future is not in a traditionally shaped slr bodies ala the current dslr offerings.. On what do you base this claim? I'll be £5 that in 5 years time Canon, Nikon, and all the others will still have traditionally shaped DSLRs available. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulmoore Posted September 17, 2008 Share #29 Posted September 17, 2008 On what do you base this claim? I'll be £5 that in 5 years time Canon, Nikon, and all the others will still have traditionally shaped DSLRs available. just the fact that most of these cameras are based on 135mm roll film cameras pre 2000.. sure the shape will be similar and they will be around in 5 years, it is in the interest of the mass builders of dslrs to make you replace the whole camera to upgrade..just as they have done for the past 8 years.. my point is that roll film is the past and there is no need to hang on to the old container. By breaking away from this intergrated camera you open the camera up to multifuctional capabilities.. a lot of photographers wear different hats, not just a sports hat..or architectual hat.. so the abiltiy to interchange parts with a larger system is a plus for me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted September 17, 2008 Share #30 Posted September 17, 2008 I'll be £5 that in 5 years time Canon, Nikon, and all the others will still have traditionally shaped DSLRs available. The bet isn't even worth 5 pounds, Steve. 5p is more than enough. LOL Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted September 17, 2008 Share #31 Posted September 17, 2008 Well being serious for a second, I think that the biggest change to SLR form will be when a manufacturer introduces a electronic viewfinder that's equivalent in terms of quality to a current SLR viewfinder. Provided any problems with sensor noise and battery life could be successfully adressed, I think the manufacturers would be very keen to introduce it - no need to build that expensive mirror housing and flappy mirror, no need for a mechanical shutter either. I.e. cheaper to build. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted September 17, 2008 Share #32 Posted September 17, 2008 Well being serious for a second, I think that the biggest change to SLR form will be when a manufacturer introduces a electronic viewfinder that's equivalent in terms of quality to a current SLR viewfinder.... I think this is true and will happen before long. But I also think the basic shape of the SLR will remain as I can't really think of another shape that is more functional. (An articulating EVF would be pretty nice.) 35mm film cameras could have had other shapes too, but through trial and error ended up where they are today. The MF SLR cameras evolved to their current shape mostly due to their need for an interchangeable film magazine and Polaroid back. And this design continues to work well for removable digital backs. Rollei once made a 35mm camera that was similar in shape to a 120 SLR because it too had an interchangeable film magazine. (Of course Zeiss also did this on a traditionally shaped body - Contarex.) I think there are some who think that this Rollei system was designed by Zeiss as a replacement for the Contarex and sold to Rollei. Rollei 3003 This could be the prototype for a modular 35mm Leica DSLR. Keep in mind that when you go from 35mm to a larger format, there will always be trade-offs of quality vs. convenience and performance. The current 35mm DSLRs have reached an incredible balance of features, size, speed, versatility, price, and image quality, that will never happen with a larger camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikFive Posted September 17, 2008 Share #33 Posted September 17, 2008 what do you mean Erik ? I meant I have the same thoughts as you. I wouldnt hessitate a moment about buying Hassy over Leica if the price is the same for both and they offer roughly the same product. I love Leica, but I cant sit around waiting for Leica to fix my camera for 3 months if something goes wrong. And I wont be a beta tester either as long as I dont get the product for free. To many M8 problems come to mind. Things can of course change when I see what the final product is and how it performs... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DuquesneG Posted September 17, 2008 Share #34 Posted September 17, 2008 IMO, take away the uniqueness of the rangefinder niche, and Leica is immediately thrust into competition with the rest of the camera manufacturers where, to all but the most ardent, intractable fans, they come up short on many planes. The relatively huge comparative lack of sales success of the R-system should make the new Leica ownership think long and hard before committing large sums of money to venture outside the rangefinder niche, and into the mainstream water...let alone someone else's well-established niche. Hasselblad carries the same venerable name-panache in medium-format as Leica does in rangefinders. Re-badging Panasonic's products is a completely different, and much less risky strategy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
haribo Posted September 17, 2008 Author Share #35 Posted September 17, 2008 Many MF users including long time Hasselblad users of older systems are upset about the direction the company is going. Basically everything other than the new H3DII system will go the way of the Dodo, since it won't get supported anymore nor can it be integrated into the new closed system. Yet, Hasselblad as a company is doing fine. Leica on the other hand still has to crawl out of a deep hole. The RF market is too small and most likely won't grow much either. Nowadays, a lot of money needs to be invested into R&D to stay current and competitive with the big guys like Canon and Nikon. In the consumers eye, they set the bar everybody else has to jump over to get at least some attention. Considering the small RF market, it is very unlikely those costs can be recovered by Leica. (Just look at Zeiss. So far, they haven't even bothered to come up with a digital Ikon. They rather focus on enlarging their piece of the lens market pie by making their outstanding glass available to Sony, Nikon and others, including now even Canon users.) If the rumors are true and Leica is entering the MF market, it is on the one hand a smart move to get away from the highly competitive dSLR crowd. On the other hand, though, Leica would be entering an even smaller market. No matter how impressive their entry might be, if their prices are in the usual Leica stratosphere they will be dead in the water before they even get started. No Pro will invest in a product s/he doesn't know what to expect from, in the long and short term. my 2 cents Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mooky Posted September 17, 2008 Share #36 Posted September 17, 2008 I stated here (somewhere) on the Form, that using a SLR design that has been around since the 1950's that was mechanical in nature will start to make less and less sense in the future. As a company, it's like hanging on to the rangefinder concept - of course a rangefinder is a different way seeing - but my point is that putting electronics around an expensive mirror assembly is fine for a traditional design concept but may not be necessary any longer if an electronic viewfinder can do the same thing, or better. I don't know that I would like an electronic viewfinder myself - I love a 'ground glass' focusing system. But those were mostly on film cameras. I expect the mysterious S2 to be different - maybe modular? - which would make upgrade-ability easy. Upgrade-ability would be a boon for users and help sell product. I have a funny feeling that the S2 (if/when it happens) will be expensive$$$$$$$$ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted September 17, 2008 Share #37 Posted September 17, 2008 I meant I have the same thoughts as you. I wouldnt hessitate a moment about buying Hassy over Leica if the price is the same for both and they offer roughly the same product. I love Leica, but I cant sit around waiting for Leica to fix my camera for 3 months if something goes wrong. And I wont be a beta tester either as long as I dont get the product for free. To many M8 problems come to mind. Things can of course change when I see what the final product is and how it performs... This will be Leica's problem exactly. A lot of pros who were not already Leica users got scared off by all the teething problems of the M8 even though they may have really wanted one. Mamiya and Hasselblad have the high end MF market pretty sewn up at the moment and not many will be beta testers for $50K worth of new gear esp considering Leicas service record (and lack of rentals). Most beta M8 buyers had lenses already (seven myself) so it wasn't a huge leap to go with the M8. A whole new system is another matter. Leica may really bite it on this one when they should be busy working on a range of DRF's and a unique p&s (canon G9/10 killer) instead. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted September 17, 2008 Share #38 Posted September 17, 2008 ... but my point is that putting electronics around an expensive mirror assembly is fine for a traditional design concept but may not be necessary any longer if an electronic viewfinder can do the same thing, or better... From what I've read about the 5DII it is very close to this already. The Live View has a mode where the mirror doesn't move. If you added a high res clip-on EVF you'd be there. (Except the AF would be slow.) I expect to see third party wired EVFs and remote LCDs for some of these cameras pretty soon. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted September 17, 2008 Share #39 Posted September 17, 2008 Seems to me that this new 5D must be the most amazing camera ever made. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgcd Posted September 17, 2008 Share #40 Posted September 17, 2008 Seems to me that this new 5D must be the most amazing camera ever made. I'm pretty impressed with many of the specs, including shooting HD video (working with Live View neither here no there for me) and being able to fire off stills at the same time, let alone the 21 MP. That combination works great for my type of business, although, according to DP Review, Nikon was the first with the D80 to offer HD video capture. Far less impressed with the optical offerings though. Cheers, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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