Leica Digital CL Poll

[Charles Frenkel]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I'm eager to see what Olympus comes out with also (whenever that is!). The prototype does look like a point-and-shoot with interchangeable lenses, so that may turn off some people who can't quite afford the M8 (but want one).

 

Unless another shoe is going to drop in the near future, I'm disappointed that Leica hasn't come out with a 'budget' version of the M8 (i.e., another RF body that takes M lenses). But I understand how a product like that could undermine the M8, so its absence makes sense from a business point of view. If Leica stands pat after the S2 (and the recent price bump of the M8.2) then I guess they are just concentrating on the truly elite market. The S2 is a high risk, high reward product, and I'll be interested to see how it does. Will it pull pro-photographers away from Hasselblad? The S2 doesn't look to be a (very wealthy) street-shooter's camera, so I suppose it's more for still subjects and studios, where size and weight are important, but far less so than in the street. I still would like to see an RF in a somewhat affordable range (to be determined?) that takes M lenses. The Epson is still available in Asia, but, for some reason, it stumbled to the point that Cosina (the OEM) won't make any more, at least not for the international market. Given that Leica can't or won't fill that lower niche, I'm surprised that Cosina or another manufacturer can't fill the gap successfully. Cosina has done well with the Bessas, right?

 

Unless the only people who want such a digital camera are reading this message!

 

I think a giant company like Toyota can afford to undermine their upper products a little with the hope that some Scion owners will eventually graduate to Lexus(es). But smaller companies like Leica and Apple, that can't afford to hedge, tend to put out what 'they' need rather than what 'you' want.

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[wstotler]

If anything, Leica are going to push themselves further upmarket and position themselves alongside Hasselblad, Phase One, etc, leaving the consumer market to the likes of Canon, Nikon and Sony.

 

Agreed--it does look like that may be the strategy, if it sticks--that's the "S2" move. Thanks, Will

[tomasis7]

I rather not see a digital CL from Leica if it allow m-mount lenses.

 

Do you think it would kill M8 market with $2500 price? I think that and I rather see like digital CM with built in lens but a bit bigger sensor but clearly more superior than own Leica P&S cameras. Like Sigma DP2, Ricoh GRd-II. Price $2500, lol. Summarit lenses sound sweeeet.

[lct]

I'm glad someone mentioned the rangefinder base, because lowered accuracy probably wouldn't work for me. It may have been okay in the days of film, but not with a digital sensor like the M8's...

I've got no problems with my Epsons and their short RF base to focus 50mm lenses (aka 75) at f/1.4 and wider lenses at any aperture. Now the digital CL would need a somewhat longer base unless it has a 1:1 VF like the Epsons.

[lct]

...Do you think it would kill M8 market with $2500 price?...

Same question 30 years ago for the CL... which saved Leica.

[jjjet1]

Many great ideas and comments, above. Thank you for this thread - let's hope that Leica is reading along.

 

For what's it's worth, I would also jump at the chance for the Leica Digital CL that many of you describe, if reasonably priced ($2K or under) and competitively featured.

 

I will no longer wait for Leica to build such a camera, however, as I believe their recent track record shows us that day could be a long way off.

 

In the meantime, they continue to overprice the "Pana-Leica" cameras, and introduce their latest/greatest technology at the ultra highend.

 

Allow me to add that I can appreciate Leica's "flagship strategy" in general terms, and I don't mean to sound frustrated, but many of us want a camera somewhere in the massive "gap" that Leica has left in their lineup.

 

Leica, maybe we can do business one day, but first you need to include my camera segment among your target groups.

[johnastovall]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I rather not see a digital CL from Leica if it allow m-mount lenses.

 

Do you think it would kill M8 market with $2500 price? I think that and I rather see like digital CM with built in lens but a bit bigger sensor but clearly more superior than own Leica P&S cameras. Like Sigma DP2, Ricoh GRd-II. Price $2500, lol. Summarit lenses sound sweeeet.

 

If it doesn't take M-mount lenses it's DOA. Besides I don't see that killing the M8 market. What will kill the M8 is a full Frame 24x36 M9.

[johnastovall]

I think the best Leica can do now is end the Panosonic relationship which does nothing but cheapen the image of Leica.

[John Thawley]

I simply don't see why Leica will also want to pursue markets that revolve around 'more affordable' products.

 

Because you can't preach to an empty tent.

 

You can do all the high-end technology and build in all the unobtanium precious metals you want, but at the end of the day, you have to pay the bills.

 

So the question becomes, how does Leica capitalize on its legacy and BRAND. Not just exploit... but capitalize. How do they advance their position in the industry while subsidizing their pie-in-the-sky flag-ship models. I think the point they are missing is that this can be done without whoring the name and or the quality of the product.

 

Take the fashion house LVHM - Louis Vitton - Moet Hennesy - they have amassed their fortunes by buying up luxury brands and applying that brand to a broader range of luxury goods. One of the first things they assess before buying a brand is the potential to expand the line and broaden the customer base... WITHOUT bastardizing the brand.

 

Leica needs to recognize the importance of bringing fresh faces into the user family.

[tomasis7]

If it doesn't take M-mount lenses it's DOA. Besides I don't see that killing the M8 market. What will kill the M8 is a full Frame 24x36 M9.

 

Imagine how many will buy if digital CL is introduced? How many M8 will sell? Most dont care of weight of M8 when you are shooting at low light. So people will go for lighter body instead. Lower price, lighter body! Great! Less half price of M8, it is more great.

 

I like idea more of budget M8 and top end M9 priced at $3000 respective $5000. I know prices look quite low but I would imagine that after a few years when M9 will be introduced and M8 will be sold to lock new RF users.

 

Or maybe Leica will kill M8 instead when they introduce next M9 with 24mpx full frame or so, so digital CL would be fair with old M8 sensor 1,33x at price $3000-3500.

 

I agree with many of you that a model with m mount is needed for $3000. Between Dlux4 and M8 is quite big gap $£€ wise. But I dont want CL body at any price, rather want see cheaper M body at lower price as under $3000. M body shape is so nice to hold We need M2 version of M8 (m3)

[tomasis7]

Same question 30 years ago for the CL... which saved Leica.

 

yeah it is good question. It is funny to think that CL saved Leica when M bodies didnt sell? what do you think what did cause that M bodies didnt sell? yoo it is CL We cannot blame on SLR

[lct]

yeah it is good question. It is funny to think that CL saved Leica when M bodies didnt sell? what do you think what did cause that M bodies didnt sell? yoo it is CL We cannot blame on SLR

It is the S2... oops i meant the M5 which did not sell then for lack of buyers.

But of course a lot of people wanted an affordable Leica and the CL was the saver.

Funny how it is difficult to explain simple things like that to people thinking it normal to pay $5000 for a 10mpix red-nosed camera.

See http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/473987-post134.html

[robola]

Absolutely count me in as long as existing M lenses don't have too severe a crop factor.

[jjjet1]

Interesting comment below, if accurate:

 

Leica Rumors: Two new Leica models between the D-Lux 4 and M8?

 

It would be nice to know that Leica management acknowledges the lineup gap, and that they might even be mulling ways to fill that gap.

[tomasis7]

It is the S2... oops i meant the M5 which did not sell then for lack of buyers.

But of course a lot of people wanted an affordable Leica and the CL was the saver.

Funny how it is difficult to explain simple things like that to people thinking it normal to pay $5000 for a 10mpix red-nosed camera.

See http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/473987-post134.html

 

What Im aware, M4 was available at the same time. I did read somewhere that M4-2 saved Leica.

 

I dont think that it is normal to pay $5000 but you get good picture quality similiar to 1ds, d3, why not? When DSLR comes with over 20mpx, so it has to happen something to M line (at price or newer bodies).

[johnastovall]

Andy:

 

Fair enough. I agree. But Panasonic sure as hell does.

 

Nick

 

Then it's not a Leica....

[lct]

What Im aware, M4 was available at the same time. I did read somewhere that M4-2 saved Leica...

Hehe! been there my friend my first Leica was a M4 in 1971 and my second one a M4-2 in 1978.

If memory serves:

Leica M4: 1967-1975 (about 60,000 bodies)

Leica M5: 1971-1975 (about 33,000 bodies)

Leica CL: 1971-1976 (about 85,000 bodies)

Leica M4-2: 1977-1980 (about 16,000 bodies)

[tomasis7]

Hehe! been there my friend my first Leica was a M4 in 1971 and my second one a M4-2 in 1978.

If memory serves:

Leica M4: 1967-1975 (about 60,000 bodies)

Leica M5: 1971-1975 (about 33,000 bodies)

Leica CL: 1971-1976 (about 85,000 bodies)

Leica M4-2: 1977-1980 (about 16,000 bodies)

 

As you see, M4 was available when CL started to sell and it had shut down just a year after the end of M4. A year after it came M4-2.

 

CL is easy to sell with profits, because Leica collaborated with Minolta so you get very cheap material, much less than M body like M4. You got crappy vf, plastic feeling etc. limited focusing and range of lenses. But for "low price" you can still earn of mass production.

 

Thats why IMHO M4-2 is that which saved leica. It would be silly to assume that 914 or 924 saved Porsche when their main core is 911 (924 would be fair because the placement of engine).

 

If it was no M4-2, it would be not there as M6, M7, MP etc. Instead maybe we see CL with brass, new vf, or death of leica in 1976.

 

But if Leica decided sell digital CL with micro 4/3 sensor and new range of compact lenses, aka Panasonic-Leica, I would welcome that.

 

If CL has to have M-mount, so CL has to downgraded at extreme grade, like plastic body, limited focusing 0,6x or less, crap vf (worse than bessa) produced in Japan, so price can be possible under $1500 along with $5000 24mpx M9 and $2500 used M8

 

The question is if Leica would accept built "cheap" CL when they have high requirements of product quality. If they build too good CL so bye bye M body fans

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[lct]

As you like Tomasis but take a look at what Howard said in my link above. He was a Leica rep then.

[luigi bertolotti]

Same as for the CL. For instance an APS-C sensor, a smaller base for the rangefinder, only 3 framelines (28, 35, 50 like the R-D1 for inst.). Also due to the smaller RF fast lenses like 50/1, 75/1.4 or 90/2 could not be focused accurately at full aperture. And of course a smaller and cheaper body than the M8. In other words the CL in a digital world.

 

AT THIS MOMENT, I'd endorse at all such a camera... probably would even buy it: but there is a big difference in respect to CL-Minolta times... the rapid evolutions in this digital era... a "low cost" Digital CL MUST sell good numbers for a reasonable timeframe, otherwise it's nonsense... so isn't easy to decide, for Leica, on which basis to engineer such a camera....

 

APS-C ? Until now, alien to Leica digital strategy...

Micro 4/3 working on Panasonic G base ? What if 4/3 proves definitely a lemon ....?

M8 format, given that M goes towards FF ? Probably savviest choice, but you have to wait for M FF intro, otherwise you risk cannibalization of the M customer base, potential important customer set for M9....

 

And then the other strategic choice: make it as a pure RF, so targeting a customer set, that, at the best, is mostly composed of "ol' Leica guys" or a EVF system ?

 

I think Leica has a lot of tasks to afford next year (sustain M & lenses sales, launch S2 in a market that is new for them, develop and launch "R10" on which they have got a public commitment...) ... I guess no time and resources for the Digital CL, unless... a simple reengineering of Panasonic G1, M-mount (probably with some limitation on M lens set), EVF, Leica cosmetic... and that 4/3 that is still a question mark....