Leica S2

[mgcd]

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These are more the types of specs I was hoping to find with an upcoming R10 save for the shape, size and AF of the A900.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Actually, someone mentioned "Sinar M" in another thread in another context, which actually comes pretty close to my speculation as a rough sketch:

 

Sinar

 

Note top of page "A Jenoptik Company" - and who just completed a digital imaging cooperation agreement with Jenoptik in June? - our buddies in Solms!

 

JENOPTIK - Pressemeldungen Archiv

 

If the Leica S2 turns out to be a rebadged Sinar M straight up , M lenses might be tricky - but the modularity likely means it would be possible with a Leica-only module for the short backfocus.

 

I'm suddenly getting a really warm fuzzy feeling here....

 

http://www.sinarcameras.com/file_uploads/picture/1219_0_sinarm-system2005.jpg

 

Note that the Sinar M currently takes Nikon-mount lenses - a little screwdriver engineering could make that an R mount....or, without the extra thickness of the reflex module, an M mount...

 

Oh, and Overgaard...yes the Red/Scarlet system occured to me also as an example.

 

I just LOVE system cameras. Even when I used nothing but a plain prism I LOVED the interchangeability of the Nikon F and Canon F-1 systems - something Leica SL/R always lacked: backs, prisms, screens, motors, waist-level viewing - build the exact camera YOU want - or field strip it just for the heck of it.

 

Now - if only the Sinar focusing screen is up to Doug Herr standards.....I imagine he can lean on Leica to make their own if not.

 

The Sinar M makes the most sense to me. It is a modular system that really given some engineering could almost be anything you want. Leica glass with a MF back folks. This is what i have been thinking all along. On the topic of Jenoptik they own Sinar and the relationship between leica and Jenoptik goes back further than that contract and my GUESS is a lot more responsible for the M8 than we think. Just where oh where did the electronics come from?

[andybarton]

I think the relationship with Sinar is probably too new to have any new product out there already. These things take years to produce (unless it is a simple mount change, in which case this isn't a new camera, merely one which will accept R lenses)

 

My money would be on the S2 being a "ground up" Leica product, to be influenced later, maybe, by Sinar/Jenoptic

[adan]

Hi, Andy:

 

As to the timing, as Guy said, Jenoptik seems to have been working with Leica well before the most recent official deal announcement. And the S2/R10 rumors have mentioned something not actually being available for sale until spring 2009. And if it is a turnkey camera based on the Sinar M, there is not that much development to be done - just adjusting the firmware to match Leica's "taste" in such things, and deciding which Sinar modules get Leica branding on them as part of the "S2" system.

 

Seeing as Sinar is selling basically a rebadged Rollei Hy6 as one of their other cameras, I would not be surprised if Leica's approach is to do the same thing (rebadged Sinar M) rather than tying up factory resources trying to hand-make what Nikon and Canon can mass-produce so well.

 

I.E. why reinvent a wheel that Sinar has already invented if it gets you somewhere very fast as is? And leaves the factory free to produce the good stuff - i.e. lenses.

 

It's late and I'll be babbling soon (if not already) so I'll just leave it that I think a direct port of the Sinar M to an R lens mount would already be an excellent camera - and if Leica can/has expanded on that basic system to produce something really unique to them - more power to them.

 

Just remember that the S1 was a VERY open device, like the Sinar, and if Leica has chosen to adopt that name for the new camera.....

 

Plus, of course, this approach leaves the folks who are always pointing out that "Canon does this or Nikon does that or Sony does the other" just standing there with their mouths open. Larger (much larger) than 24 x36? 40-50 Mpixels? Full system camera with interchangeable modules (i.e. easy to upgrade the sensor anytime)? Just a whole different planet than the 35mm-based DSLRs.

[luigi bertolotti]

I thought all night long (oh, well, not exactly... ) to this Sinar M... Leica could really do something smart around it... it 's a highly modular product, so they could take SOME (only some) of the components, of course with some little reengineering and, where possible, restyling (It must be a Leica Camera, not a rebadge) and obtain an interesting professional DSLR... for instance a NO AF camera, R mount MF-FF by crop with a proper Dback... MF lenses to come... A sort of "semi-modular" "open-but-not-too-much" pro system that let you some freedom of choice of 3rd party components (backs) but ties you, for instance, to the glasses. Pure speculation, of course, for I have no idea of the economics of this particular market (volumes, needs/expectations, financials...maybe could really have sense to make a "lease only" system...)

[andybarton]

I agee that an R mount for this Sinar might be great stop gap, but I still don't think it's the S2

 

There are lots of rumours re this MF offer, though, and I think that this will mean that a digital Leica SLR is not on the cards this year in any form other than "vapourware"

 

I CAN see a three range Leica in the future. M at the bottom, NewR in the middle and Sx at the top. Ambitious, maybe, but a unique place in the industry.

[stevelap]

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I agee that an R mount for this Sinar might Neva great stop gap, but I still don't think it's the S2

 

There are lots of rumours re this MF offer, though, and I think that this will mean that a digital Leica SLR is not on the cards this year in any form other than "vapourware"

 

I CAN see a three range Leica in the future. M at the bottom, NewR in the middle and Sx at the top. Ambitious, maybe, but a unique place in the industry.

 

 

The 'bottom to top' description is a little mischievous Andy, how about

DRF/DSLR/DMF instead:)

[andybarton]

I am thinking in terms of size

[stevelap]

I am thinking in terms of size

 

Silly me, good to hear:)

[Philippe D.]

Actually, someone mentioned "Sinar M" in another thread in another context, which actually comes pretty close to my speculation as a rough sketch

OK, but don't forget the i put in the post.

The Sinar m is six years old (Photokina 2002).

I guess the basic idea mixed with some R features could made something real.

The Sinar Digital Back is so huge... Let's put a brand new Digital-Modul R on it.

 

Who said "Monday 15th." ?

[Guest guy_mancuso]

The MF backs are somewhat big but just as a example my Mamiya/phase body with back and lens is actually shorter than the D3 and weighs about the same. It's boxer obviously but I think there is room to trim this down a little. Remember also all MF backs have the CF cards built into them and most have the batteries on the back itself also. Also you get bigger than the FF 35mm sensor than everything will have to grow with it. Bigger mirror and bigger spacing from lens flange to sensor. This really is a interesting idea. I know most folks are not looking at the MF market as i am since i am in it at the moment but there have been already a big surge in backs . Each OEM has already announced more backs with more coming.

[sdai]

I CAN see a three range Leica in the future. M at the bottom, NewR in the middle and Sx at the top. Ambitious, maybe, but a unique place in the industry.

 

The S2, if it's anything close to the S1, has no place in the market, unless of course they consider 50 sets is a market.

 

A perfect lineup would be Digilux, M and R.

 

The S is only a fill gap product which can be conveniently put on the show when they have nothing to present.

[Jamie Roberts]

Yeah, I'm with Conrad and Simon here. I don't see myself being a beta tester for a lot of, um, no doubt finicky and very, very expensive electronics, made by Jenoptik or anyone else.

 

Heck, they can't even fix the green streak issue on the M8. The last thing I'm going to do is sink a boatload of cash into a tricky modular bleeding edge system that will also likely be anything but user friendly...

 

If I had the $$ and the desire to be less portable, slower and more obtrusive with a camera system, why should I trust Leica with my money (or Sinar for that matter). Why the heck Leica just wouldn't work with Phase to provide them glass for their existing system is beyond me. Do they really need a presence in the MF camera / back market?

 

Personally, I want a clear line of site from the DMR--still the best file producing dSLR I've ever seen. But it needs updating (and so do some of the R lenses). I have a real sinking feeling about all this...

 

But then there have been zero actual announcements yet

[mooky]

The Sinar M uses Zeiss (H3) and Nikon lens mounts, and is extremely expensive for what it is - which could just be caused by the low volume of product sold. It is a nice concept, but I have to agree, I just don't think it's what Leica is working on - at least not Sinar's M.

 

I would love to see a completely designed (originated) by Leica product - even a full-framed DMR - but I always get back to Kaufmann's comments 'think full-frame or perhaps larger'. FWIW, the Rollie/Leaf/Sinar MF camera would be a mistake in my opinion. Any rebadging from another company would be a step-off the Leica creativity train (again/minolta) and I don't see Kaufmann being willing to be under 'anyone's thumb', in that way at least.

[manolo]

For me it just looks very logical to have a 4/3, micro 4/3, R & M lens lines with two modular cameras that work for this 4 lines.

 

they can't call this second camera an M or an R so they just call it S.

 

the "larger than full frame" is because the sensor can take 2*3 , 4*5 or scuare frames.

 

Regards to all, Geronimo

[jaapv]

Any rebadging from another company would be a step-off the Leica creativity train (again/minolta) and I don't see Kaufmann being willing to be under 'anyone's thumb', in that way at least.

 

For the real R10 in R mount I think there is no other option initially than rebadging to get the R system going again.

[ho_co]

Interesting how disparate our views are on this one!

 

My view is that any future R camera can't be rebadged and can't be seen as a competitor to the Japanese. It must break new ground.

 

But my limited view is that will be difficult if not impossible.

 

There are too many questions to make it possible to retain compatibility with the R line if the new camera is going to be AF, and it must be AF to carve out a niche.

 

But the idea of a successor to the S1, along the line of the Sinar, sounds attractive.

 

Jamie--I don't think we expected an elimination of the green stripe. That would require a new sensor, and that would be a new camera--something Dr Kaufmann said would not happen in model year 2008.

 

Interesting, these last few days, right?

[manolo]

I just ask for one thing:

 

When the S camera info is out and it can take both M & R lenses you are going to have to say that you heard it first from a Mexican that it's ancestors ate a German once.

 

Internet is so cool, you think of something and you just say it.

[Jamie Roberts]

{snipped}

Jamie--I don't think we expected an elimination of the green stripe. That would require a new sensor, and that would be a new camera--something Dr Kaufmann said would not happen in model year 2008.

 

Interesting, these last few days, right?

 

Howard, simple improvement is exactly what I *did* expect after 2 whole years of M8 development time. An updated sensor with the same crop and IR filter factor, but with less noise and better performance (and an updated image pipe--that's what they could partner with Jenoptik for), is exactly what's called for by most M shooters at this point.

 

So I minimally want fixes to the original M8 in terms of baseline performance. You know--very very simple evolution that's probably actually sitting in Kodak's warehouse right now and that would only require a minimum rework of the M8 itself.

 

I'm still hopeful that this is exactly what Leica is doing and where they are going, since nothing official has been announced.

 

Now, if Leica can't get this right in their "cheap" M body, I have little confidence that a partnership with Sinar will yield anything like the DMR replacement I want.

 

I'm also very skeptical that a company with little electronic expertise is capable of revolutionizing MF shooting. Except, of course, in the optical department, which is their forte right now. So why Leica is not focusing there with MF I have no idea.

 

And again, this is all speculation, of course. I still want an R10, personally... something that just kills the competition in terms of IQ with a few tradeoffs.

 

Yep, the last few days have been "interesting" and "Hope springs eternal"--but I'll be pretty peeved if they don't actually fix some of the issues with the M8 and outline a plan for the R system too

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[sdai]

something that just kills the competition in terms of IQ with a few tradeoffs.

 

I couldn't agree more with you, Jamie.

 

Leica doesn't even need to bother with "feature sets" in the slightest degree at all. Anyone who cares more about the "JOY" of fumbling can always pick up a Nikon or whatever and there're more than abundant choices readily available.