sean_reid Posted September 13, 2008 Share #21 Posted September 13, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) Reinier! Who is your dealer? He should help you and he should fight for his clients. Any dealer should! If he is in the Netherlands, he is in legal terms the party you should address. I had a similar problem with my 3 months old Canon 20D, 1500 EUR at the time. It died in the tropics. Canon said: waterdamage/errosion so no warranty repair. Total loss. I did not accept that, had some interesting talks with my dealer, finally things went quite high up in Canon Europe and I got a refurbished camera in the end. And Canon has a very bad reputation in these matters. My argument was: this is a semi-professional camera and it should hold out for years including use in inclement circumstances, barring of course immersion or fire or the like If you have no dealer to fall back on, then you are on your own. And this is further reason that the successor to the 5D should be sealed. My wife (also a professional photographer) and I feel so strongly about this issue that if the 5D successor does not have full weather seals, we will probably sell our whole Canon system and switch to D700s. The 1 series bodies (which I've owned) are larger and heavier than I want to work with. We got a lot of rain in VT this summer. Plastic hoods, etc. are a PITA esp. for fast-paced work that clients have paid a lot of money for. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 13, 2008 Posted September 13, 2008 Hi sean_reid, Take a look here M8 in greenland &^%%( . I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
sean_reid Posted September 13, 2008 Share #22 Posted September 13, 2008 I can understand this. Dropping the camera, water damage, being caught in a fire, how can any manufacturer give warrantee for that? The manuals I've read for cameras with weather seals *do not* say that the cameras cannot be exposed to moisture (immersion is a different story). I haven't tested this theory yet but as I write this I have a Canon 1Ds III and sealed 50/1.2 L here which I will be shooting with (likely in the rain) today. If either failed due to that moisture exposure, I would fully expect warranty to cover the damage. As some may have guessed, I feel strongly about this issue as someone who has made my living with digital cameras for several years now. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted September 13, 2008 Share #23 Posted September 13, 2008 Imo a pro camera as an M8 should be able to withstand conditions like this, as discussed above. I think you're absolutely right. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 13, 2008 Share #24 Posted September 13, 2008 The manuals I've read for cameras with weather seals *do not* say that the cameras cannot be exposed to moisture (immersion is a different story). I haven't tested this theory yet but as I write this I have a Canon 1Ds III and sealed 50/1.2 L here which I will be shooting with (likely in the rain) today. If either failed due to that moisture exposure, I would fully expect warranty to cover the damage. As some may have guessed, I feel strongly about this issue as someone who has made my living with digital cameras for several years now. Cheers, Sean Still -and for the record I fully sympathize with Reinier and agree the camera should be able to withstand reasonable abuse- but if the damage is 2800 € it cannot have been just a little bit of damp - this implies a total renewal of all electronics inside the camera, including the motherboard and maybe even the sensor. Now if Leica finds that amount of damage - how could they reply differently? The M9 should be weathersealed - it implies, however, a full range of weathersealed lenses at the same time. Not a negligible amount of R&D for a small company like Leica..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted September 13, 2008 Share #25 Posted September 13, 2008 Still -and for the record I fully sympathize with Reinier and agree the camera should be able to withstand reasonable abuse- but if the damage is 2800 € it cannot have been just a little bit of damp - this implies a total renewal of all electronics inside the camera, including the motherboard and maybe even the sensor. Now if Leica finds that amount of damage - how could they reply differently? The M9 should be weathersealed - it implies, however, a full range of weathersealed lenses at the same time. Not a negligible amount of R&D for a small company like Leica..... Yes, that does mean a new set of weather sealed lenses. They could be introduced incrementally and many of us might not feel the need to replace all of our lenses with weather-sealed versions. Yes, it costs R&D money to do this, just as it has for all of the other manufacturers who have gone through this process. Yet, going through that process is exactly what those manufacturers have done because it is undeniable that computers and water don't mix. As I said in my first review of the M8, mechanical M cameras were often able to keep functioning in conditions that stopped other cameras all together. Now, with the use of batteries, computers, etc. we have new limitations but the M should be as robust (under various weather conditions) as a digital camera can be. That is, in my mind, part of the nature of a Leica M. The M8 remains my favorite camera to date but there are clearly ways in which it can be improved. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
guywalder Posted September 13, 2008 Share #26 Posted September 13, 2008 weathersealing of lenses is another issue all together, Nikon dont claim (to my knowledge) to have weather sealed lenses, although they have a modest rubber ring around the bayonet of some new lenses... nonetheless leica should be prefectly capable of encapsulating much of the electronics regardless of moisture ingress to the body. After all if you seal the body and leave the electronics exposed, then there is still the potential of corrosion due to condensation when a 'fully sealed' body moves from climate to climate. My otherwise excellent FE2 died due to moisture ingress, and that was well before the advent of digital.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
m_opel Posted September 13, 2008 Share #27 Posted September 13, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) the camera was put in thebackpack to protect it against rain...The backpack itself had a rain cover. Ofcourse a bit damp it will always be, but it has not been exposed to water. How can it be then that the camera became wet? When something, e.g. a camera, has not been exposed to pouring rain but is showing so much moisture inside its admittedly not sealed shell that this moisture can cause a breakdown then it *has to have had* contact with water - and not only a few raindrops for a few seconds. Imo a pro camera as an M8 is should be able to withstand conditions like this, as discussed above. Yes, you are allowed to request that. But: the M8 - as all other current and past M cameras and lenses - have not been designed to withstand water. This has been published and discussed many, many times. So from my point of view your camera breakdown is not at first place Leicas fault. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gravastar Posted September 13, 2008 Share #28 Posted September 13, 2008 Still -and for the record I fully sympathize with Reinier and agree the camera should be able to withstand reasonable abuse- but if the damage is 2800 € it cannot have been just a little bit of damp - this implies a total renewal of all electronics inside the camera, including the motherboard and maybe even the sensor. Now if Leica finds that amount of damage - how could they reply differently?............................ What I find difficult to understand is why Leica don't apply a protective spray conformal coating to the internal circuit boards - where the conductive tracks are very close together and potential gradients highest. In one of my previous lives we used to always do that if it was impossible to weather seal equipment. In fact the circuit boards in the M8 charger, in spite of it's short comings have a thin waxy coating to protect against condensation/moisture. Bob. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted September 13, 2008 Share #29 Posted September 13, 2008 But: the M8 - as all other current and past M cameras and lenses - have not been designed to withstand water. This has been published and discussed many, many times. So from my point of view your camera breakdown is not at first place Leicas fault. The mechanical Ms tolerate rain and snow quite well. It's a bigger challenge once electronics are involved but challenges are one reason engineers exist. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_reinierv Posted September 13, 2008 Author Share #30 Posted September 13, 2008 How can it be then that the camera became wet?When something, e.g. a camera, has not been exposed to pouring rain but is showing so much moisture inside its admittedly not sealed shell that this moisture can cause a breakdown then it *has to have had* contact with water - and not only a few raindrops for a few seconds. well simple, Dampness may result in condensation, but this only occurs if the moist can enter the camera en reach the electronics. Electronics are basically very easy to protect against these situations with a protective film. Note that it is something completly different from weather seals that keep direct rain water out. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gravastar Posted September 13, 2008 Share #31 Posted September 13, 2008 ...................................... So from my point of view your camera breakdown is not at first place Leicas fault. That I think is a very debatable point. It's that the camera is unable to withstand internal condensation due to changes in humidity and temperature. The camera body does not have to come into contact with water for that to happen. Taking an M8 from a cool air conditioned room in a hotel out into the humid streets of Bangkok could potentially cause trouble. Problem is nobody knows what the limits are. Bob. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted September 13, 2008 Share #32 Posted September 13, 2008 Sean, Are you willing to contribute feeding the engineers? Best regards, Uwe I'm not sure what you mean by "feeding". My contacts at Leica include engineers and I've been stressing this issue since 2004. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Photoskeptic Posted September 13, 2008 Share #33 Posted September 13, 2008 I've had great luck with wet electronics by leaving them in the sun for three or four hours. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted September 13, 2008 Share #34 Posted September 13, 2008 I've had great luck with wet electronics by leaving them in the sun for three or four hours. Sometimes that works. It brings us back to the question of luck. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gravastar Posted September 13, 2008 Share #35 Posted September 13, 2008 If they haven't already done so Leica need to look into this. It could be something as simple as residual re flow solder flux on the printed circuit boards which is dissolving in condensed moisture to form a damaging conductive electrolyte. Pure clean condensed water is a very poor conductor of electricity, it's the ionic contaminants that can cause a problem. If the camera is always powered like the M8 once electrolysis starts circuit board tracks are very soon eaten away - resulting in a total loss. Bob. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tina Manley Posted September 13, 2008 Share #36 Posted September 13, 2008 I agree that I've been very lucky with my M8s but I'm very hard on cameras in general. All of my M's have been underwater at one time or another. With the film M's I've always just dried them out in front of a fire. Then when I get back from wherever, I send them in for CLA. Both of my M8's got soaked more than once in Honduras this summer. Both went underwater when I fell crossing a stream. I tried to keep them under a poncho walking in torrential rains from one village to another, but the blowing rain made it impossible to keep them dry. They kept working and I only had problems with two lenses fogging up. I think Leicas M8s are as durable as any other digital camera. There is no point in carrying Leicas if you are going to put them in a waterproof bag or avoid taking them in the rain. I do wish we still got the passport warranty just for peace of mind! Tina Tina Manley- powered by SmugMug Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 13, 2008 Share #37 Posted September 13, 2008 The point is, Tina, that you keep on using them, or under a poncho or whatever. You don't lock them up in an environment where the water can really start working its way in. Keeping them out in moving air is also better for preventing condensation buildup. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanhulsenbeek Posted September 13, 2008 Share #38 Posted September 13, 2008 If the camera is always powered like the M8 once electrolysis starts circuit board tracks are very soon eaten away - resulting in a total loss. Bob. That is so right, and I have stated that several times, on different forums. Whenever the humidity suddenly gets near or at 100%, whip out your battery (and why not you SD-card also) immediately. This condition arises in very high humidity conditions when the temperature suudenly changes. I had it twice in Borneo in super humid jungle conditions when the sun came out and I was in a clearing. I got soaking wet and the camera had pearly condensation all over. Plus sweat , which lethal concoction, I am sure, also got inside. That Canon 20D died. A week later, after I had been back in the city and had bought a 350D, the same thing happened to that camera. I did what I advised above, let the camera dry, and it was fine. This can also happen when you get in and out of aircon, or from the cold into a warm tent. No camera with interchangeable lenses can be supertight. The alternative: buy a Nikonos! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted September 13, 2008 Share #39 Posted September 13, 2008 Reinier--did you actually let Leica have a look at the M8 and determine it was the moisture that killed it? Or did you tell them what happened and give them a chance to say "we won't cover this?" Or was it just the dealer's response? The reason I ask that it would be a pity if the M8 failed for some other, moisture-unrelated issue that would be covered by warranty. It can happen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tina Manley Posted September 13, 2008 Share #40 Posted September 13, 2008 "Whenever the humidity suddenly gets near or at 100%, whip out your battery (and why not you SD-card also) immediately." Well, here in South Carolina, that would mean I would never put the battery in my camera!! 100% humidity and 95 degrees today - and most of July, August and September! Tina Tina Manley- powered by SmugMug Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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