matt736 Posted September 22, 2006 Share #1 Posted September 22, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) I have put up this question as I have placed a deposit for an M8 with my local dealer, but now I am in two minds, as I have an Epson R-D1 and I am wondering if the M8 will really produce images that are that much better than what the R-D1 does.Secondly I was planning to sell the R-D1 to help pay for the M8 and have since found out that it is only worth half its value what I paid for two years ago.This also begs another question will the M8 hold its value or will it drop like the R-D1.Could this camera be an expensive mistake for me? The thing is I can afford it ,but do i want/need it ?,Is there anyone else sitting on the fence ?, Cheers Matthew Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 22, 2006 Posted September 22, 2006 Hi matt736, Take a look here M8 cost for an amatuer - is it to expensive ?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
mhoutman Posted September 22, 2006 Share #2 Posted September 22, 2006 Hi Matthew, I don't have an Epson but I do have a M7 with some lenses. In fact I have waited so long for the M8 that in the mean time I could 'resist' the Epson. I guess the resale value of an Epson can not be compared with the Leica's, but who knows what Leica will release in 2-3 years.......time must tell. In your case I would wait and compare both camera's and find out if the M8 suits your needs. However, if you by any means already decided for the M8, keep your Epson a backup of for a family member. success, Michiel btw: yes the M8 is expensive compared to other brands; I guess it is the look and feel and quality of the components (particularly the lenses) which make people go for Leica's Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterb Posted September 22, 2006 Share #3 Posted September 22, 2006 In the film era, whether you bought a brand new M6 or M7 or a used M4, evolutionary touches aside, you pretty much knew that whatever film was put in the chamber this camera with it's unsurpassed precision rangefinder focusing and, especially, its unrivalled optics would guarantee the best possible image on that film. Today, when you INVEST in a camera like the M8, you are LOCKED into the 'film'. That is, you own a piece of machinery that can only perform as well as the sensor inside of it. For the moment it appears that the M8 is going to be the state of the art....for about six weeks. Then someone else will have a yet another new improved lower noise sensor yadda yadda yadda. And you'll feel like crap. And try to justify that rightness of your purchase even though it may keep gnawing at you that there's now a better sensor out there. Until even that one is bettered. With film, you could be Tri-X or get the improved T-Max with it's improved crystalline structure and not have to take a financial commitment like the one that's being asked of you here. I suppose the bottom line is, whereever you take the plunge, you can have the confidence that the images you produce will be excellent. Even knowing that within 24 hours there'll be a much better sensor that the one that's came with your camera. Because right now, the images produced are better than they were at 35mm in that you can make incredible enlargements that you never before thought possible with film. My only wish was that the camera had a provision for a sensor upgrade or a format upgrade should the time come when full frame sensors meet Leitz standards like the full frame sensors in the Canons. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted September 22, 2006 Share #4 Posted September 22, 2006 I'd stop to think about what things, if any, are problematic for you about the Epson. Then look at the M8 and see if it would solve those problems. If the R-D1 is just fine for you already, maybe you don't need to switch. I myself will be working with one M8 and one R-D1. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted September 22, 2006 Share #5 Posted September 22, 2006 All this talk about upgrades is just nonsense. To begin with, an FF sensor will not fit insde the shutter "gate"; second, it would require complete re-engineering of the camera so any cost saving would be minimal compared to buying a new camera. I can identifiy lots of things wrong with the R-D1, mainly to do with build quality, lack of support, only three viewfinder frames, poor battery life with the new firmware upgrade and so it goes on. The R-D1 can point the way to Rangefinder Digital Nirvana but only the M8 will get you there. I've ordered two M8s, one of which will have the viewfinder magnifier permanently attached for (as Sean says) 35-90; the other will handle 16-28. Just as I always wanted, variable viewfinder magnification, I just didn't expect to have to buy two cameras to achieve it. I wouldn't worry about depreciation. Sure the camera will be worth less in 6 months than it is now and even less 2 years from now. So what? Enjoy it while you can, you're a long time dead. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted September 22, 2006 Share #6 Posted September 22, 2006 I agree. I think that the days of owning and more importantly, using, the same camera for 40+ years are now over. I intend to use my DMR as much as possible for as long as possible, but do not expect to be using it when I have retired. (That's not 40 years away, unfortunately ) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted September 22, 2006 Share #7 Posted September 22, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) I can identifiy lots of things wrong with the R-D1, mainly to do with build quality, lack of support, only three viewfinder frames, poor battery life with the new firmware upgrade and so it goes on. The R-D1 can point the way to Rangefinder Digital Nirvana but only the M8 will get you there. Hi Mark, What I was suggesting was that Matt look at *his* concerns with the R-D1, if he has any. I don't believe that any camera is worst or best for everyone. The R-D1 isn't perfect but neither is the M8. I think the important thing is for an individual to look at how a camera's strengths and weaknesses suit *his or her* needs. For example, for LCT, the R-D1 seems to be a better camera. I prefer the M8 myself (for the exact reasons you mentioned) but would not want to be without an R-D1. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
albertwang Posted September 22, 2006 Share #8 Posted September 22, 2006 And don't forget that Zeiss probably has their Digital Ikon on the architect's board right now. I'm waiting to see what Zeiss comes out with before I make a final choice. $5000 isn't a small sum of cash these days. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted September 22, 2006 Share #9 Posted September 22, 2006 Most would say that the R-D1 produces images which are rather better quality than the humble ex-D100 sensor would have you believe and noise is well controlled. It really is time we saw some real images from the M8 for a detailed look. The M8 needs to demonstrate the superiority of Leica glass when paired with it over the competition. If, for example, the M8 is not good enough to show that a 24mm Elmarit is indeed better than a 25mm Zeiss, why would anyone then go for the Leica lens? Leica will have shot themselves in the foot. As the Wendy's ads used to say (when I was young enough to be able to eat junk food with impunity), "Where's the Beef?". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted September 22, 2006 Share #10 Posted September 22, 2006 Matt: I agree with Sean that you should ask yourself what an M8 will give you that the R-D1 won't. If you won't see significant benefit from: wider field of view, more pixels, better focusing/framing with 75 or 90mm lenses, and whatever intangible differences derive from the Kodak-vs-Sony sensor - then likely not. In considering the depreciation of your current camera (or an M8) - ask yourself "In terms of FUN, film/processing savings, time savings, gas-to-the-lab savings, and miscellaneous other benefits - did (or will) I get my money's worth out of the camera for the time I used it?" In my case the R-D1 is history - but I AM sure that I will get far more than the price of an M8 back in VALUE over its life (which will be until something critical but no longer repairable breaks). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt736 Posted September 22, 2006 Author Share #11 Posted September 22, 2006 Thanks for all your replies,yes I agree with what everyone is saying. Sean my R-D1 has perfomed well and produced some of the best images I could ever want from a camera,and since upgrading to the R-D1s software it has been a fine performer. Mark yes like you i am also waiting for Leica to show us what the M8 can produce and with this I think I will continue to keep my place in the queue and probably keep my R-D1 as a backup camera for when i'm sending my M8 back for failed software updates - only kidding !! Just a thought any idea what sort of Passport Warranty Leica will be offering with the M8 when it goes on sale ? Cheers Matthew. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
albertwang Posted September 22, 2006 Share #12 Posted September 22, 2006 Plus I don't think that Epson is going to make the R-D1 again any time soon. It had its spotlight already. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotografr Posted September 22, 2006 Share #13 Posted September 22, 2006 The only thing you have to consider with digital cameras is whether the one you are using suits your needs. If it does, it doesn't matter how much better the new models are or what the lost value of your camera is. It's very tempting to keep buying every new version that is introduced just so you can be satisfied in your own mind that you have the best--but that gets to be a very expensive proposition. Personally, I plan to use my M8 until it drops dead (or I do). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Ross Posted September 22, 2006 Share #14 Posted September 22, 2006 I have put up this question as I have placed a deposit for an M8 with my local dealer, but now I am in two minds, as I have an Epson R-D1 and I am wondering if the M8 will really produce images that are that much better than what the R-D1 does.Secondly I was planning to sell the R-D1 to help pay for the M8 and have since found out that it is only worth half its value what I paid for two years ago.This also begs another question will the M8 hold its value or will it drop like the R-D1.Could this camera be an expensive mistake for me? The thing is I can afford it ,but do i want/need it ?,Is there anyone else sitting on the fence ?, Cheers Matthew Mathew, I think you will see a significant image improvement over the R-D1's Sony sensor. I have an Oly E-1, with a Kodak KAF sensor and a KM5D, with the Sony sensor as in the R-D1 and I can see a difference with the tonal and color gradients, DR and the data depth of the images, that favors the E-1. The M8's sensor is twice the area and two generations newer, so I expect to see some good changes to an already good sensor. The folks with the DMR can provide you with samples to compare. My buying pattern for M bodies goes 1977, 1984, 1994 and hopefully 2006. So will the M8 be good 10 to 12 years from now? I think it will and I think my E-1 will be, too. Will cameras 10 to 12 years from now make our current cameras look terrible enough to be ashamed of the images? I don't think so. Bob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted September 22, 2006 Share #15 Posted September 22, 2006 Most would say that the R-D1 produces images which are rather better quality than the humble ex-D100 sensor would have you believe and noise is well controlled. It really is time we saw some real images from the M8 for a detailed look. The M8 needs to demonstrate the superiority of Leica glass when paired with it over the competition. If, for example, the M8 is not good enough to show that a 24mm Elmarit is indeed better than a 25mm Zeiss, why would anyone then go for the Leica lens? Leica will have shot themselves in the foot. As the Wendy's ads used to say (when I was young enough to be able to eat junk food with impunity), "Where's the Beef?". Hi Mark, The R-D1 already shows the differences between those two lenses. I would caution against assuming that the Leica lens will be "better" than the Zeiss on the M8 or on an M7 for that matter. Those two lenses draw differently on the R-D1 and they will still draw differently on the M8. Which lens will be "better"? That will depend on how the photographer wants his or her pictures to look. The ZM lenses tend to darken the lower zones, creating a kind of contrast that is very particular to that line. Is that kind of contrast "better"? There's no absolute answer. I prefer the drawing of the Leica 24/2.8 but I wouldn't say it's a better lens than the Zeiss 25. The base level of performance for many modern rangefinder lenses is quite high, the differences now often come down to subtleties. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted September 22, 2006 Share #16 Posted September 22, 2006 Thanks for all your replies,yes I agree with what everyone is saying.Sean my R-D1 has perfomed well and produced some of the best images I could ever want from a camera,and since upgrading to the R-D1s software it has been a fine performer. Mark yes like you i am also waiting for Leica to show us what the M8 can produce and with this I think I will continue to keep my place in the queue and probably keep my R-D1 as a backup camera for when i'm sending my M8 back for failed software updates - only kidding !! Just a thought any idea what sort of Passport Warranty Leica will be offering with the M8 when it goes on sale ? Cheers Matthew. If you can afford to keep both, that would be a great way to go. A few months from now you'll have a better idea about whether you want to sell the R-D1. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChipNovaMac Posted September 23, 2006 Share #17 Posted September 23, 2006 Thanks for all your replies,yes I agree with what everyone is saying.Sean my R-D1 has perfomed well and produced some of the best images I could ever want from a camera,and since upgrading to the R-D1s software it has been a fine performer. Mark yes like you i am also waiting for Leica to show us what the M8 can produce and with this I think I will continue to keep my place in the queue and probably keep my R-D1 as a backup camera for when i'm sending my M8 back for failed software updates - only kidding !! Just a thought any idea what sort of Passport Warranty Leica will be offering with the M8 when it goes on sale ? Cheers Matthew. Matt, I am going through something similar- though not with the R-D1. I have been happy with my newer Nikon kit and have been adding some single focal length lenses (the 35/2.0 and 50/1.4 so far) for a less intrusive kit. Still like taking my M6TTL out from time to time; and feel guilty that it doesn't get used much. My thought was that the M8 with the T-E Wide and my T-E along with my 35/2.0, 50/2.0, and 90/2.8 would give me digital RF experience without the pain of dealing with Epson. And that with the new T-E Wide, my M6TTL would tag along and see more use. I have to admit the $8600US cost for the M8 and the T-E Wide is a bit scary as time goes on. More so when my shop was notified by Leica USA that the M8 only has a two year standard warranty. Not the 3 year Passport/5 year limited warranty of the MP and M7. Was hoping to shave the cost of the T-E Wide off, since I already have the 15, 21, 24 CV lenses. But Sean has not given much hope of satisfaction with these lenses on the M8, despite claims from another member here that CV lenses do well. Regards Chip Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted September 23, 2006 Share #18 Posted September 23, 2006 Was hoping to shave the cost of the T-E Wide off, since I already have the 15, 21, 24 CV lenses. But Sean has not given much hope of satisfaction with these lenses on the M8, despite claims from another member here that CV lenses do well. Regards Chip Some CV lenses will likely do very well on the M8. They just aren't all created equal in that respect. And, please keep in mind that I have not yet done any formal lens testing with the M8. I'll know more when I have done that. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted September 23, 2006 Share #19 Posted September 23, 2006 More so when my shop was notified by Leica USA that the M8 only has a two year standard warranty. Not the 3 year Passport/5 year limited warranty of the MP and M7. I think Leica are just playing safe. Years of making the mechanical cameras has given them confidence to offer the 5 year warranty on the MP - not so the M7 where the increased complexity will take its toll. Extrapolate that to the M8 and it's easy to see why the two years. It might also have helped keep the price down. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rvaubel Posted September 23, 2006 Share #20 Posted September 23, 2006 If you can afford to keep both, that would be a great way to go. A few months from now you'll have a better idea about whether you want to sell the R-D1. Cheers, Sean I am #2 on my dealers list for the M8, and I am keeping my RD1 for sentimental reasons as well as practical. I would like to keep a sample of the RD1 as the first, and certainly unique, example of a digital rangefinder. The analog dials alone will undoubtedly insure some value as a future collectable. Or maybe not. So, for me, the cost of the M8 is not a major factor. In fact, one of the motives for buying the Leica is to relieve the RD1 from her daily chores. At least the M8 can be repaired...now thats a plus!! Rex Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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