Leica R10 with 24x36mm sensor Can't take current R lenses?

[LUIS A GUEVARA]

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It was always about getting the best quality out of the smallest format. The very first Leica was the first approach -> small negatives but big prints.

Prof. photographers used large format cameras (Technica, Graflex?) up to the early 50s even for free-hand work, then they switched to medium format (Rollei, Hasselblad).

 

The best lenses available (which are current Asph/Apo-lenses from Leica so we need only a few new R-lenses <90mm) in combination with 2008 sensor-technology (like the new Kodak CCD in 24x36mm with 24Mpixels) to create a system, which delivers a unsurpassed quality in this small format. Ok, it won't be a 50MPixel MFDB but many professionals are happy with the resolution of their older 22MPixel backs anyway.

 

Nikon and Canon deliver perfect systems for their purpose: press/sports-photography: rugged and fast cameras!

But the new Leica could be used as a alternative to todays low-end MFDB-work with great ergonomics, bright viewfinders, great manual focus but with the compactness and versatility of the 35mm-world (a "simple" 2,8/180Apo equivalents the Zeiss TPP!!! Lenses are easily 2 full stops faster!).

 

@pixtweak

Leica has no better "out of the box" reliability as the high-end-systems of Canon/Nikon, you notice that they're made in small series. I had a few products that had malfunctions within the first year. The difference to other "mass-production"-systems is the way these things are designed/build, when they work, they work. Even after decades they just feel like new! No cost-reduction every year, no new suppliers because someone from a low-wage-country claims to be just as good only cheaper...

It will take them some time to establish the same high-quality-suppliers/longtime relationships for all the digital-stuff but I think the new DSLR will be a step in the right direction! But it won't be a midclass-system like the 5D or it's successor, it will be damn expansive high-end, that's for sure.

But you're looking for the best possibly quality in the 35mm-world, don't need the speed of sports/press-photography? Leica is the way to go.

 

The real challenge that Leica faces is about restoring their position as Leaders in Photography. Designing a FF DSLR inline with the current crop of Japanese cameras will only perpetuate their current position as "Followers". They would be hitting the market with a still-born product while the rest of the Japanese manufacturers moves onto the 24 MP Generation of FF.

 

The success of Barnack's first 35 mm camera was that it was a light , small , handheld high I.Q. replacement for the cumbersome view cameras and medium format cameras of its time. This success would not have happened if the Image Quality wasnt equal or better than the cameras it was targeted to replace.

 

If Leica is to reinvent itself it needs to repeat Barnack's strategy of jumping ahead of the Medium Format capabilities , that everybody knows are not sleeping , but on the contrary seem to be going through their own revival and really leading the image quality issue.

 

The next Leica-R camera has to offer better resolution , larger Mega Pixel count , and introduce new technologies like the Foveon sensor . Anything else is just lateral development . What is needed is Revolution rather than Evolution of the inherently defective Bayer technology

[rosuna]

That's exactly why you can't adapt the M lenses on a R camera. For the same reason, you can't adapt the R lenses on a medium format camera.

 

I know it, but you can define a new system with a smaller relative register (lens to flange distance divided by the diagonal of the sensor.

 

You may be right that I don't understand why Leica has to go for larger than 35mm, to be frank, I don't want to understand because I already have a Hasselblad and that's larger than the rumored larger than 35mm format. If Leica "really" wants to do it, go ahead please ... and I wish them good luck.

 

Leica can offer something different than Hasselblad: smaller bodies, smaller and faster lenses... Do you want to have a 30MP (or more) sensor AND f/2 or even f/1.4 lenses? There is not any camera providing that in 35mm or 645 format.

[mjh]

I know it, but you can define a new system with a smaller relative register (lens to flange distance divided by the diagonal of the sensor.

 

Leica can offer something different than Hasselblad: smaller bodies, smaller and faster lenses... Do you want to have a 30MP (or more) sensor AND f/2 or even f/1.4 lenses? There is not any camera providing that in 35mm or 645 format.

Current MF bodies are certainly bigger than they needed to be, being originally designed with 120 film magazines in mind, rather than the 49 x 36.7 mm sensors typically used today. But with 645 sensors are just around the corner, this will change soon. Phase One wants to introduce a camera with a 645 CCD from Dalsa in Q4 2008 and Hasselblad will have a bigger CCD (not the one from Dalsa) in 2009. The big MF bodies will start to make sense again.

 

But for a camera vendor without a legacy MF system to support, it is certainly tempting to build a DSLR around current MF CCDs. As the H3DII-31 has proven, even the smaller KAF-31600 with its 44.1 x 33.1 mm frame size is a fine MF sensor in its own right, and a body built around this sensor could be quite small – smaller than the Mamiya ZD, for example. Still, I doubt that the flange distance would be much shorter. Even when there was no mirror to be considered, one wouldn’t want to run the risk of added vignetting by increasing the angle of incidence at the edges of the sensor.

 

Lenses would still need to be bigger and heavier than their 35 mm cousins, though, the sensor diagonal being 1.4 (49 x 36.7 mm) or 1.3 times (44.1 x 33.1 mm) longer. A higher lens speed would require even bigger lenses. And honestly, I doubt we will see much faster lenses. One of the MF advantages is the shallow depth of field you get at a higher f-number – you can stop down one f-stop and get the same depth of field, but with the image quality benefit that goes with the smaller aperture.

[sdai]

Hasselblad will have a bigger CCD (not the one from Dalsa) in 2009. The big MF bodies will start to make sense again.

 

What is that, Michael ... they'll do 6x6 again? will the HC lenses work on that? all in a sudden the CF lenses appear to be interesting again. LOL

[mjh]

What is that, Michael ... they'll do 6x6 again? will the HC lenses work on that? all in a sudden the CF lenses appear to be interesting again. LOL

6x4.5, not 6x6. That (56 x 41.5 mm, to be precise) is the frame size the HC lenses were designed for, so there shouldn’t be any problems. The HCD 4/28 is a different matter.

[rosuna]

Hassel will go full 645 next year. Meanwhile, they have 36x48mm. Mamiya/Phase One hit first: full 645 and smaller sensors, for 645 lenses.

 

A good example (and unique) of "optimized for smaller than 645" is the Hasselblad HCD 28mm. From this only case it is difficult to get an idea of what can be done for something like 36x48, or a bit smaller.

[sdai]

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6x4.5, not 6x6. That (56 x 41.5 mm, to be precise) is the frame size the HC lenses were designed for, so there shouldn’t be any problems. The HCD 4/28 is a different matter.

 

Thanks for clearing this up, Michael. I apparently misread your post and was thinking of a sensor larger than the DALSA FF sensor. LOL

[mjh]

I apparently misread your post and was thinking of a sensor larger than the DALSA FF sensor.

It might be – the Dalsa CCD isn’t exactly FF, after all, although the difference is slim (53.9 x 40.4 mm vs. 56.0 x 41.5 mm).

[rosuna]

Is it likely a mirror box-less system for the new digital reflex of Leica? It would allow for a much smaller body, and for keeping the register of the R system...

[Riley]

Is it likely a mirror box-less system for the new digital reflex of Leica? It would allow for a much smaller body, and for keeping the register of the R system...

 

umm, no

take away the mirrorbox and it isnt a reflex camera

but if you did there would still be no point except to use lenses you already owned

the virtue of an interchangeable lens camera without a mirrorbox is that the lenses can be placed very near the film plane. That requires new lenses to get the best out of it, and those lenses wound be small

[rosuna]

Well, I take for granted a new medium format system, so new lenses will be required anyway...

[marknorton]

the virtue of an interchangeable lens camera without a mirrorbox is that the lenses can be placed very near the film plane. That requires new lenses to get the best out of it, and those lenses wound be small

 

...also known as a Leica M and we know the problems putting the lenses very near the focal plane caused them.

[RobMac]

From Michael Reichman at LL (today IIRC):

 

"A Leica MF (Medium Format) system is almost definitely on the horizon, but specifics will have to wait for an official announcement.

 

Apparently there are still many details to be resolved, so don't believe much of what you read, other than the fact that something is cooking.

 

Michael"

 

With No R lenses coming at PK and with Kaufmann simply referring to 'reflex' vs R10 or R-line and with all the Jenoptik (sic?) hugs & kisses of late, the new R looks like it may very well NOT be a 35mm SLR.

 

What might be interesting is if they have a mode akin to DX mode on the D3/700 that will allow the use of R glass via some (god-awfully costly I'm sure) adapter(s).

 

As for a sensor just marginally larger or of a slightly different aspect ratio, to milk the last nth degree out of the existing R image circle, what's the point?

 

All it would do is further expose the weaker corners of any existing lenses and add a new format to the mix. With the advent of stitching 35mm frames, what value is a marginally larger 35mm vs 'true' MF (within today's context) sensor to anyone?

[rosuna]

I don't think it will be "marginally" larger... 36x48 is just the double. If the format is a bit smaller then you get a bit less... But it is not "marginal".

[sdai]

So who will buy this 36x48 Leica, Ruben?

 

Old medium format folks are pretty much locked in (at least) one system already.

 

It's a new beast to the R owners and I've no idea how many of them will move UP to medium format.

 

It's also very unlikely that it can attract any 35mm user from N/C/S/P camps as well.

 

So what I heard more than 2 years ago is basically correct ... stupid me chose to hang on even after Guy has run away.

[lct]

After the red-nosed M8, now the Godzilla R10 and tomorrow what, the EVIL CL?

[sdai]

After the red-nosed M8, now the Godzilla R10 and tomorrow what, the EVIL CL?

 

Considering Leica's relationship with Jenoptik, perhaps it's a rebadged Sinar camera with the eMotion back.

 

I've long suspected that Hasselblad broke up with Leica after the DMR when they realized that they were dealing with a direct competitor in the long term, then we heard about the attempted takeover of Sinar and finally, Leica signed up the deal with Jenoptik.

 

Has anybody around here had any direct experience with the eyelike/eMotion digital backs? Googling doesn't yield many useful results, when it comes to medium format digital, everything seems to be Hasselblad, Phase One, or Leaf.

[andybarton]

... stupid me chose to hang on even after Guy has run away.

 

Guy has turned running away to the new kid on the block into an expensive art form He should be in Beijing, these coming three weeks...

[Guest noah_addis]

Ok, I hate to chime in on this speculative thread and I don't even use R gear (I think leica would be smart to ditch the R line personally.)

 

From what I understand, the reason the DMR couldn't be full frame as it had to work within the restrictions of the existing R-body film gate. The limiting factor was not the lens mount, but the film gate. As the R10, if there ever will be such a thing, is a new camera, this will not be an issue as it can be built from the ground up as digital and won't have a film gate to deal with.

 

The smart path would be for leica to put electronic AF contacts in the R10, that would provide AF with future R-AF lenses with internal focusing motors. The existing R lenses would work fine without an adaptor, same as Nikon.

 

There really is no issue here and the fact that a dealer said otherwise doesn't give us much to go on.

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[sdai]

Guy has turned running away to the new kid on the block into an expensive art form He should be in Beijing, these coming three weeks...

 

I'm taking three weeks off watching TV at home ... poor man's Olympics. LOL Seriously, he reports to the forum wherever he goes ... Guy, can you hear me? is the L-Camera forum blocked by the Chinese?