haris Posted June 27, 2008 Share #1 Posted June 27, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hello, Reading Erwin Put's article: The question no one dares to pose (February 27, 2008) | Photography and image capture: the Leica technique and philosophy by Erwin Puts | Erwin Puts and sentences he used to conclude it: "Like it or not: the RF concept is in danger of becoming an obsolete object: more lenses and a bigger sensor do not change that conclusion. Leica has to convince new users that the RF concept is exciting and a true alternative to the dSLR concept in terms of image quality and image production." I thought about the same issue a little. And I cant get rid of feeling that issue has tight bond with status of street photography today. As I can see and read, more and more people report difficulties when performing street photography, governments of countrie or local bringing decisions which are restrictive to street photography, or atleast give that impression to photographers, etc... As Leica RF cameras are almost synonimus and symbols of street photography, can assumed danger to RF cameras originate from status of street photography today? That is, Leica RF cameras (including M8) as such are OK and not issue, but danger to them, to RF concept, lies in problems street photography (photographers) have today. Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 27, 2008 Posted June 27, 2008 Hi haris, Take a look here Is RF in danger?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
spylaw4 Posted June 27, 2008 Share #2 Posted June 27, 2008 Street photography is not the only style of RF photography. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
haris Posted June 27, 2008 Author Share #3 Posted June 27, 2008 Street photography is not the only style of RF photography. I know, of course it is not, but when I think about street photography, first association is RF camera, and vice versa... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
spydrxx Posted June 27, 2008 Share #4 Posted June 27, 2008 Like almost everything else, people adapt to change. Street photography will continue to evolve from what is popular today to whatever is popular tomorrow. I do think I must be in the minority though, as I read about people having difficulty doing their street photography, and I haven't encountered any of their difficulties. Perhaps it is because I'm in the midwest (USA) and the street photography is a relatively small component of my work...but I haven't encountered difficulties in South America either. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobtodrick Posted June 27, 2008 Share #5 Posted June 27, 2008 I think RF photography is in danger of becoming extinct, due to sheer economics. We have a world where anything that is not mass produced, using modern materials (plastic) is going to be very expensive. Like anything from Leica. Unfortunately couple that with the fact that the market base for Leica (in particular) is shrinking, in my mind means it won't be around for the long term, without some serious rethinking at higher levels. I sell photographic supplies in a large Canadian city. Not retail...I sit in the 'back office' and sell to gov't, newspapers and schools. The schools are what makes me pessimistic. I deal with 1 trades school that has a 2 year photo course, 1 university that has a 4 year visual arts degree program with a photo segment, and 1 community college that has a 2 year visual communications course. Total about 110 students/years. I have a large Leica poster in my office (the infamous Che image). A few of the students have heard of Leica...I don't know of any who know what a rangefinder actually is. There will of course be the 1 or 2 forum members who will respond back that they are 25 and love Leica and the rangefinder way. But they account for less than 5% of new Leica buyers. Once us old fogeys are gone there just won't be enought people to ante up $5000+ for a rangefinder body. In my opinion anyways. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted June 27, 2008 Share #6 Posted June 27, 2008 I think it WILL BE in serious danger depending on DSLR development... right or not it is, nowadays we tend to compare M8 to top line DSLRs... cameras that are very bulky and on which M8 enjoys a sure advantage in handling and portabilty; but... what if in 1-2 years the usual Ni-Ca shall be able to offer nice FF DSLR with about the dimensions of, say, the present Olympus E-410 ? Frankly, I think in this case a Leica RF will have lot of troubles in gaining NEW customers (historical M customers, like me, are not significant, and less and less in the next years... ). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted June 27, 2008 Share #7 Posted June 27, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) ...the RF concept is in danger... I don't know for you but i seem to have heard that since the eightees at least. Letting aside the golden years of the M2/M3, Leica RFs have always been a niche market for rather healthy people so far as i recall i.e. doctors, lawyers, engineers plus a few pro photographers and a couple dentists of course My feeling is those buyers, or their sons, are still here in the same market. They still like Leica plus now ZI and CV lenses and those who cannot afford an M8 would be quite happy to find out a digital CL or whatever substitute to the Epson R-D1 IMHO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted June 27, 2008 Share #8 Posted June 27, 2008 I think it WILL BE in serious danger depending on DSLR development... right or not it is, nowadays we tend to compare M8 to top line DSLRs... cameras that are very bulky and on which M8 enjoys a sure advantage in handling and portabilty; but... what if in 1-2 years the usual Ni-Ca shall be able to offer nice FF DSLR with about the dimensions of, say, the present Olympus E-410 ? Frankly, I think in this case a Leica RF will have lot of troubles in gaining NEW customers (historical M customers, like me, are not significant, and less and less in the next years... ). The major manufacturers will be stuck with their existing very large lenses for quite a time (compare the size of Canon's 35/1.4L and the Leica Summilux-M and you will see what I mean), so reducing the body size of a FFdSLR isn't the whole solution. Add to this the probems of designing new lenses capable of really producing results comparable to the (existing) MPixels of FF sensors, let alone smaller ones, and I doubt very much whether handling and portability are going to substantially change for FFdSLRs within a few years. To get the RF market in perspective, it has probably been a niche market for quite some time and will continue have its adherents (existing and NEW) for numerous reasons in the years to come, most not at all concerned with street photography at all. I don't see this changing dramatically so don't really see RF being in danger. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted June 27, 2008 Share #9 Posted June 27, 2008 Haris-- A very good point. The rangefinder camera is identified with war photojournalism at least through Vietnam and with street photography. The intense clampdown many governmental agencies are propagating against people who "might be against us" because they're taking pictures of things "we" wouldn't take pictures of is a new danger, and one we must all combat by being aware of our rights and demanding that they be taken seriously. But even if we do so, some people will let themselves be intimidated, those rights may be eroded, and the 'edge' the rangefinder has in those situations will shrink. A bit of historical perspective: The rangefinder was the king of the hill until the arrival of the Nikon F. From that time forward, the death of the RF has been forecast. As a matter of fact, after the failure of the M5 in the marketplace, Leitz Wetzlar actually decided to discontinue the M series. The Midland plant begged to be allowed to keep the camera in production and produced M4-P and M4-2, and Wetzlar finally decided to keep it in production. Leica had been the clear winner in the rangefinder world, despite competition from Zeiss, Nikon and Canon; and the market held back switching to SLR, waiting to see what Leica's venture into that marketplace would be. Unfortunately, that first gambit was the Leicaflex with external metering. The year of that introduction was the year that Nikon F sales took off, the company's best sales ever to that point. Since the '70s, Leica has been 'too expensive' and the rangefinder both 'overpriced' and 'out of date.' We've now got more pressures against us, and I'm glad you brought that up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jimmy pro Posted June 27, 2008 Share #10 Posted June 27, 2008 I won't go so far as to say RF is in danger, but Leica definately might be. Let's face it, most of Leica's buyers aren't pro's, so a new camera is a luxury (well, maybe for some it's an obsessive compulsion, but for the majority....). With almost all costs of living rising in a dominoe affect on account of gas prices, and with lots of jobs--including white-collar, not just grunt labor--being lost, and shifting to China and India, it's possible more than a few guys are gonna think twice about plopping down another six or more grand on the next Leica that comes out. And I'm just talking the younger guys who are still working. The big chunk of Leica's customers that are retired, it really depends on how well set they are. If there rich enough then it won't matter, but if inflation threatens to put a crimp in there retirement lifestyle, then even some guys can't say no to a new Leica thereselves, I bet a few of there wives will say it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dedalus Posted June 27, 2008 Share #11 Posted June 27, 2008 mmmm. As usual I understand about a quarter of what is said in this forum (damn ignorance...). Does this mean that the Leica R system will become digital? I've looked around the forum and saw a few R10 posts. Is this the way Leica is going? Funny to read this thread today when a dealer in London told me that if Leica doesn't issue a DSLR soon the market for the R cameras and R lenses will continue to stay in a slump and even less people are going to be buying R cameras anymore, be it used or new. He went on and explained that in order to become a Leica dealer and stockist, Leica forces you to buy a certain number of M cameras and lenses but absolutely no R systems since the market is so bad at the moment. What are your thoughts over this? Thanks, Manuel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianv Posted June 27, 2008 Share #12 Posted June 27, 2008 Sounds like this argument has been going on for 50 years. Nikon F replaced the Nikon S-Mount, Canon stopped making RF's in 1968, and The Retina Reflex-S replaced a fine line of Rangefinder cameras, and Zeiss stopped the Contax line. Well, then re-introduced an SLR by the same name. And then an RF NOT using the Contax name.... And yet Leica and Cosina make RF's half a century after SLR victory was declared. Sometimes rambling is more coherent than trying to make sense out of such statements. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted June 27, 2008 Share #13 Posted June 27, 2008 mmmm. As usual I understand about a quarter of what is said in this forum (damn ignorance...). Does this mean that the Leica R system will become digital? I've looked around the forum and saw a few R10 posts. Is this the way Leica is going? .... He went on and explained that in order to become a Leica dealer and stockist, Leica forces you to buy a certain number of M cameras and lenses but absolutely no R systems since the market is so bad at the moment. What are your thoughts over this? Thanks, Manuel Uhm... just an observation about the evidenced above... the Leica authorized dealer in my town told me the inverse... he complained some months ago (when I bought my Summarit 75...) that to maintain his status he had to stock also a number of R gear, which he was dubious to be able to sell... those, I think, are specific policies of national distributors : in Italy, and most other countries, private companies that in turn have, I think, to struggle with Leica distribution rules... maybe is significant that my dealer's complain dates BEFORE the famed Mr. Lee firing... Anyway my thought is that Leica MUST be in the DSLR market, and hope for them they'll do it the right way... the RF market, at the best, shall continue to be a niche too small to allow a company to survive in the era of digital. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dedalus Posted June 27, 2008 Share #14 Posted June 27, 2008 That's very interesting that Leica has different policies according to the country. Maybe it's an analysis on the national market they made. Any thoughts over where the R systems will be going in the near future? If the R10 comes out I would assume that the current R lenses will be compatible, this would mean increased demand and higher prices, so the current slump in prices would not last. Man...I need to break my piggy bank before it's too late!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted June 27, 2008 Share #15 Posted June 27, 2008 ...If the R10 comes out I would assume that the current R lenses will be compatible, this would mean increased demand and higher prices, so the current slump in prices would not last... Nobody knows if or to which extent the forthcoming digital R will be compatible with existing lenses, hence low demand and low prices so far, except for lenses highly praised by Canon users perhaps. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted June 27, 2008 Share #16 Posted June 27, 2008 I don't know for you but i seem to have heard that since the eightees at least.Letting aside the golden years of the M2/M3, Leica RFs have always been a niche market for rather healthy people so far as i recall i.e. doctors, lawyers, engineers plus a few pro photographers and a couple dentists of course My feeling is those buyers, or their sons, are still here in the same market. They still like Leica plus now ZI and CV lenses and those who cannot afford an M8 would be quite happy to find out a digital CL or whatever substitute to the Epson R-D1 IMHO. SIGH, lct !!! You are sure a "rather healthy" lawyer, I am a "rather healty" engineer, and a "rather healty" dentist comes to my mind too... ... but till now, for me, I have some doubt about "my sons" (daughters, to be precise...) ... I tried a month ago (Lumix, of course, but "Vario Elmarit...")... no special reaction, at the moment (just an evening joking insert in a serious strategic thread...) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted June 27, 2008 Share #17 Posted June 27, 2008 That's very interesting that Leica has different policies according to the country. Maybe it's an analysis on the national market they made. Any thoughts over where the R systems will be going in the near future? If the R10 comes out I would assume that the current R lenses will be compatible, this would mean increased demand and higher prices, so the current slump in prices would not last. Man...I need to break my piggy bank before it's too late!!! hmmm... we will see... I am not so sure about the assumption... AF or not ??? FF or "something else" ??? That's a big decision for them... I think that if the RF is a niche and, in a certain sense, they can be content of maintaining their (primary) role in it, in the DSLR market they REALLY MUST acquire NEW customers... a rather little share of it (8-10%) means anyway absolute numbers well over the RF... maybe would be better for them to "risk" the satisfaction of present R series users but with something really NEW to show to the rest of the market... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Flatline Posted June 27, 2008 Share #18 Posted June 27, 2008 Rangefinders are harder to use than SLRs. It's that simple. My mom or my wife (and frankly, virtually none of my friends) are capable of picking up my R-D1 or my M8 and get a shot. With an SLR, chances are they can. Is RF Photography in danger of becoming obsolete? It is obsolete already. Marketing it along the lines of image quality is a bad idea. If they're going to bother to make a case at all, it will have to be that the process is somehow more fun, more connected... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted June 27, 2008 Share #19 Posted June 27, 2008 SIGH, lct !!! You are sure a "rather healthy" lawyer, I am a "rather healty" engineer, and a "rather healty" dentist comes to my mind too... ... but till now, for me, I have some doubt about "my sons" (daughters, to be precise...) ... I tried a month ago (Lumix, of course, but "Vario Elmarit...")... no special reaction, at the moment (just an evening joking insert in a serious strategic thread...) Haha! same for my daughter i'm afraid but she is to young to know if she will be a *poor* lawyer like her father for now. Seems to prefer becoming a *rich* engineer so far. :D Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted June 27, 2008 Share #20 Posted June 27, 2008 Rangefinders are harder to use than SLRs. It's that simple. My mom or my wife (and frankly, virtually none of my friends) are capable of picking up my R-D1 or my M8 and get a shot. With an SLR, chances are they can. There's the point, Iron! Thirty years ago, you could put a rangefinder in someone's had and she could immediately understand it. Best way to sell a Leica was to put one into the hand of an SLR user and ask them to focus. It was far easier and quicker than they were used to. As you say, that's different today and the dSLR wins hands down. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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